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Bullets tipping with 1050 - Dillon dies


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Before reinstalling the swager I had the press running perfectly: Dillon size/deprime, Redding Expander, Dillon Powder die, Redding Competition Seater and Hornady taper/crimp (temporary).  I did subsequently swap out the Dillon Size/Deprime for a Lee U die and this configuration continued to work perfectly.  I could manual crank out rounds as fast as I could pull the handle, about 2 seconds/round.  This with both 115gr Acme and 147gr Bayou bullets.

 

I have been encountering some crimped primers with a particular once-fired vendor so I decided to try once more to get the press to run with the Dillon swager.  I got the expander/swage die dialed in, but no matter the bell I induce with the powder die the Acme bullets really want to tip over unless I ease the shell plate into the final position.  Has anyone gotten this combination to produce a bell that really "grabs" the bullet? (The Bayou bullets are chamfered to a little more forgiving).  I do have a Mr. BulletFeeder PTX for the Dillon powder station, but took it out because it did tend to grab the case, but better that than bullets tipping.

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Bullet topple and the powder funnel sticking to the brass at the belling/powder drop station are common. I have a 1050 with a Mark 7 and reload a variety of 9mm bullets, including the ACME bullets which I ordered in .357. Lead bullets, coated or not, are always an issue and topple more in my experience. Could be because you have to bell more to avoid cutting the bullet, and the bell actually provokes topple. That's my opinion at least.  Interestingly, I found some vendors bullets require no belling to work fine. Xtreme and Berry 9mm plated, and Precision Delta JHP, all seem to work find with zero bell using the Dillon resizing die and standard swage assembly.


Some users attach a rubber band to the bullet dropper to accentuate the bullet tamp.  I don't need this but if you search for this you will find suggestions.  You may also look at adjusting the bullet drop thread down a bit...the knurled black ring on the bullet dropper assembly...too much and you'll know you have it too much. Also check your directions to make sure you are using the proper set of holes on the bullet drop, but that's not likely your issue.

 

Many, including me, have found that one or more of these three tweaks (one or more theses...in no particular order) will reduce bullet topple by softening the 'snap' of the shellplate as it indexes. 1) switch to a low mass/delrin detent ball 2) snip off a small section (very small sections at a time) of the spring UNDER the detent ball 3) switch to a Fast and Friendly Brass shellplate. I have the FFB shellplate which seems to soften this snap, I think because the cases fit in the plate better and don't wiggle back and forth as much which contributes to the topple. I don't need the change the spring or detent ball. The FFB plate is expensive, tho.

 

I use the swage die in standard fashion, and the MBF powder funnel.  With longer (147 gr for example) bullets, I found that too much bell made topple worse.

If you wanted to expand more of your case mouth, you could pursue a irreversible option of grinding away some of the bottom of the swager back-up rod. You will need to reset the swager back up rod down a bit lower, obviously, after this. This has the effect of having MORE of the expander part of the back up rod enter the case before the rod bottoms out on the cycle. You will effectively be expanding a longer section of the case mouth. However, since the expander is still 1-3 thou's UNDER your bullet diameter, it won't always help with topple. But I've heard people say that it does.

 

Lastly, I found that Hornady One Shot lube is good for reducing that brass stick to the powder funnel. When I sort my 9mm, I use a previously described hack where I lay out 4-5 .40 s&w factory ammo trays in a small plastic bin, face up. I pour 9mm brass over it. They mostly fall into the holes mouth up, and after 2 seconds you have most of your brass cases mouth up. Then, I lift this tray up to look across the top and at eye level. Any .380 brass becomes immediately obvious (shorter) and I forceps it into the trash. I then place these trays back into bin, and mist them very lightly with the One Shot...this way at least some of it goes INTO the case mouth, giving a very light coat of lube. Let dry for 15 minutes, and reload.   This pretty much eliminates the powder funnel sticking to brass, and also reduces the resizing effort where most of the brass resistance occurs normally. The One Shot has no effect on function, and doesn't leave a sticky residue like other case lubes. No need to clean it off of your pistol rounds.

 

That One Shot it bad to breath, and I suggest you do it outside or by a window with a fan blowing OUT. Don't breath that stuff if you can avoid it. While some may claim it's safe, there is NO benefit to it and potentially great harm.

 

I have also instead used Imperial Sizing Die Wax and applied a fairy dust amount on the powder funnel every few 100 rounds, and this seems to help. VERY small amount, too little to even see. I saw no function problem with the ammo after that, either.

 

Very slight chance your use of the U die is complicating this b/c you are, by definition, undersizing the case and making the fit tighter. Yes the expander should alleviate that, but since you have the regular Dillon die already, I'd swap that in and see if topple improves. Cheap option, at least.

 

I would start cheap and add a rubber band to the MBF assembly, then nip an 1/8" of detent spring at a time and see how things progress. I would do that until you have a replacement spring in hand o/w you might be out of business if you snip off too much spring, until you get a replacement.


C

 

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Really appreciate the detailed response.  I've always found the Acme bullets a bit harder to "seat" even on my LNL.  Once I installed a Mr. BF PTX on my LNL things improved dramatically.  I know the U die isn't at issue since the Acme bullet tipping problem predates; The bullet tipping isn't severe as I an mostly manage by smoothing out the last bit of travel, but I'll reinstall the Dillon version of the Mr. BF PTX and see about the sticking.  I'd rather not have to use a lube if I can avoid doing so.

so:

Rubber band and/or Mr. BF adjustment - easy to do

Install Mr. BF PTX - easy to do

delrin detect ball and/or shorter spring`QAZSW`

FFB shellplate - expensive, but easy.

 

Next time I load, probably tomorrow, I'll put the Mr. BF PTX back in.  It's a known good "fix" provided the grab is acceptable.

Again, thanks.

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RickT, Quirk has given you great advice. I'm loading 147gn Precision Deltas on a Mark-VII driven 1050. The rubber band on the MBF bullet die did more for solving my problems than anything, although I have implemented his other suggestions as well.

 

One additional upgrade that's easy to install, if you choose to replace the detent ball, also pick-up a roller-bearing for the shellplate (they are often sold in a kit together). The two combined do a lot to smooth the rotation of the shellplate and remove the snap Quirk spoke of. I picked mine up from Level-10 and have always felt they provided a good product at a decent value and were pretty quick to ship.

 

M

 

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on the 1050 I get better results using the swager/backup rod and Dillon powder funnel over the DA funnel, you really don't need it (the DA funnel) once you have the swage/backup rod setup correctly on a 1050.


That being said, I haven't loaded any ACME 9mm bullets, but have loaded ACME 10mm and 45acp with this setup with no issues.  Very little bell applied over the expansion done at the Swage/Backup Rod station.

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The current state is very manageable and my "tip rate" is very low when I slow down the last bit o the handle stroke.  Since I'm considering going to a Mark 7 I'm going to implement the shell plate upgrades in addition to the rubber band hack.  I've probably already loaded 10K rounds (at 6K+/month), but when I first started with the 1050 I was used to setting primers on my LNL.  With a stock 1050 I've had to retrain my right arm.  The 1050 makes truly quality ammo; I can't imagine why I haven't seen a similar improvement in my shooting.

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I can't imagine why I haven't seen a similar improvement in my shooting.

Funny. Me too... of course there is a vicious rumor it's the nasty cross wind on lane 3 at our indoor range. ;-)

In all seriousness though, they claim you never save money reloading because you shoot more. That's exponential when you are cranking out 1,800 to 2,000 rounds an hour.

...and nothing improves skills more than actually doing!

M

PS you'll love the Mark-VII


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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On 4/4/2017 at 8:47 PM, 78Staff said:

on the 1050 I get better results using the swager/backup rod and Dillon powder funnel over the DA funnel, you really don't need it (the DA funnel) once you have the swage/backup rod setup correctly on a 1050.


That being said, I haven't loaded any ACME 9mm bullets, but have loaded ACME 10mm and 45acp with this setup with no issues.  Very little bell applied over the expansion done at the Swage/Backup Rod station.

 

Do you use the backup rod as supplied or did you grind the bottom a bit so more of the expander part enters the case... to improve bullet stability during indexing and reduce the amount of bell needed?

 

Q

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On 4/5/2017 at 5:03 AM, RickT said:

The current state is very manageable and my "tip rate" is very low when I slow down the last bit o the handle stroke.  Since I'm considering going to a Mark 7 I'm going to implement the shell plate upgrades in addition to the rubber band hack.  I've probably already loaded 10K rounds (at 6K+/month), but when I first started with the 1050 I was used to setting primers on my LNL.  With a stock 1050 I've had to retrain my right arm.  The 1050 makes truly quality ammo; I can't imagine why I haven't seen a similar improvement in my shooting.

 

I'll second that approval of the Mark 7...and fixing what you can now, in anticipation.   Any process issues you have now will be amplified dramatically with automation. Every caliber, every bullet and powder level potentially introduce new issues. The MBF often needs adjusting for each new bullet shape, the belling/toppling issue we discussed commonly requires tweaking.  If your case is full of powder, then powder spillage requires adjustments to the index speed, etc.  Even subtle differences of primer brand has an effect. I consistently have more problems with Magtech primers getting jammed in the primer slide when I start running really fast, while WInchester primers do fine.  The Mark 7 is ideal for high volume production of a single load. Knowing your 1050 well - loading 10k plus manually and fully disassembling and cleaning and lubing several times, and knowing the mechanisms well - before you automate,  REALLY helps.  When you add the Mark 7 it's almost like the unit has a different personality altogether, with unique troubleshooting issues added to the basic troubleshooting of the 1050. 

 

and, get yourself a Dillon primer filling machine...otherwise that becomes THE rate limiting step. I have to refill the primer tube every 3 minutes!

 

Q

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I have an RF100.  I'm well over 10K on my new 1050 already and due for it's second cleaning/lube.  We shoot very soft steel challenge loads (9mm only) so powder spillage is a nonissue.  I wouldn't mind higher throughput, but at 71 y/o I'd like to save my right arm for practicing my draw versus pulling the 1050 handle 7000 times/month.  I've run all manner of bullet profiles through the MBF; by far the biggest cause of bullet inversion was the small amount of shaking the press induced.  Once I added a brace to the support arm upside-down bullets have reduced dramatically.

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7 hours ago, Quirk said:

 

Do you use the backup rod as supplied or did you grind the bottom a bit so more of the expander part enters the case... to improve bullet stability during indexing and reduce the amount of bell needed?

 

Q

 

No grinding, just the stock backup rod and swage setup.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I know you want to avoid lube but do yourself a favour and try some one shot. It makes everything so much smoother and adds very little hassle. 

 

I use a massive ziplock bag. 

 

Chuck in 300 cases or so. Lay it on a table so most are flat but plenty are mouth up too. Give 3 quick bursts of one shot in the bag then immediately close it up. Shake them around a bit then I let them sit in the bag for 2-3min (say while I get projies and primers ready). Then just dump into the collator. That's it. 

 

Theres no extra mess. Everything becomes amazingly smooth. Nothing to wipe off afterwards. 

 

This is using the aerosol one shot btw. Not the pump bottle. 

 

Like you I was a sceptic. I thought loading 9mm with carbide dies was plenty easy and lube sounded like a hassle or something only rifle shooters needed. 

 

Now on the odd occasion I run say 20 cases through to try something and I don't bother to lube I can't believe how much more handle effort is required. I can't believe I loaded like that for so long. 

 

Just shell out the $10 for a big zip lock bag and a can of one shot. I can promise it's worth it. 

 

The reduced handle effort will be great even when you automate as you'll be able to use a lower clutch setting which will mean it is more sensitive to any jams but still has enough to size cases. :)

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On 4/16/2017 at 1:41 AM, BeerBaron said:

I know you want to avoid lube but do yourself a favour and try some one shot. It makes everything so much smoother and adds very little hassle. 

 

I use a massive ziplock bag. 

 

Chuck in 300 cases or so. Lay it on a table so most are flat but plenty are mouth up too. Give 3 quick bursts of one shot in the bag then immediately close it up. Shake them around a bit then I let them sit in the bag for 2-3min (say while I get projies and primers ready). Then just dump into the collator. That's it. 

 

Theres no extra mess. Everything becomes amazingly smooth. Nothing to wipe off afterwards. 

 

This is using the aerosol one shot btw. Not the pump bottle. 

 

Like you I was a sceptic. I thought loading 9mm with carbide dies was plenty easy and lube sounded like a hassle or something only rifle shooters needed. 

 

Now on the odd occasion I run say 20 cases through to try something and I don't bother to lube I can't believe how much more handle effort is required. I can't believe I loaded like that for so long. 

 

Just shell out the $10 for a big zip lock bag and a can of one shot. I can promise it's worth it. 

 

The reduced handle effort will be great even when you automate as you'll be able to use a lower clutch setting which will mean it is more sensitive to any jams but still has enough to size cases. :)

 

 

Excellent tip. I will try that. Another way to avoid breathing those lung-dissolving fumes.

 

Q

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