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Help with Leading


jschweg

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No, it does not create lead acetate with only 3% Hydrogen peroxide and 5% vinegar. It takes much, much higher concentrations and the solution has to boil.
 
Lead acetate can be made by boiling elemental lead in acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. This method of using acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide will also work with lead carbonate or lead oxide. Acetic acid starts to boil at 245F and peroxide at about 303F. Insufficient concentration of either solution and failure to reach the required boiling temperature and there will be no reaction. A successful reaction, after drying, yields a solid, lead acetate, which would then have to be ingested to cause harm.
 
Here it is dissolving my finger (not), solution temperature is 71F
 
image36607.jpg



That's a nice job ripping some quotes from Wikipedia, but there's a difference between industrial processes for stoichiometric production of lead acetate and the production of it as a byproduct. Vinegar and lead alone at STP will react to form lead acetate.

Dissolved lead acetate is absolutely toxic transdermally. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8016629/


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So here is the issue, you have to have a fundamental understanding of chemistry before you can understand what you are trying to understand. To precipitate lead acetate, a solid, you need to have at least an order of magnitude more concentration of both solutions, and a sufficient amount of elemental lead, and reach boiling temperature of that solution. I've only repeated that protocol several times in our wet chemistry lab, and never reached a temperature greater than 222F to boil, far below reaction temperature. And after we dried the solution, under high vacuum, to a solid, and ran it thru the FTIR, it was only still elemental lead. No lead acetate was precipitated. 

 

But back to the OPs question, "Is this lead" Yes, in my experience, your photo is identical to mine. But the only empirical data is to brass brush the barrel, followed by Hoppes, then dry patch. Put your kitchen gloves on, if you are scared, and put a couple of ounces in the barrel. If it fizzes, its lead.

 

But besides all that, blood lead level in shooters is what you breathe in from gun exhaust, nothing else. If you have not been tested, you should, otherwise you rely on internet yadada. Only data is meaningful.

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So here is the issue, you have to have a fundamental understanding of chemistry before you can understand what you are trying to understand. To precipitate lead acetate, a solid, you need to have at least an order of magnitude more concentration of both solutions, and a sufficient amount of elemental lead, and reach boiling temperature of that solution. I've only repeated that protocol several times in our wet chemistry lab, and never reached a temperature greater than 222F to boil, far below reaction temperature. And after we dried the solution, under high vacuum, to a solid, and ran it thru the FTIR, it was only still elemental lead. No lead acetate was precipitated. 
 
But back to the OPs question, "Is this lead" Yes, in my experience, your photo is identical to mine. But the only empirical data is to brass brush the barrel, followed by Hoppes, then dry patch. Put your kitchen gloves on, if you are scared, and put a couple of ounces in the barrel. If it fizzes, its lead.
 
But besides all that, blood lead level in shooters is what you breathe in from gun exhaust, nothing else. If you have not been tested, you should, otherwise you rely on internet yadada. Only data is meaningful.


I do, thanks. I'm not the one ripping off wikipedia and passing it off as first hand knowledge. Lead and acetic acid alone form lead acetate. Period. That was the industrial process for producing lead acetate over a hundred years ago. Nor is it necessary to precipitate the lead salt to have a vector for lead exposure.

The statement that "blood lead level in shooters is what you breathe in from gun exhaust, nothing else." is so oversimplified as to be false. Sure, that's a vector of exposure. But the reality is, for most people there's substantially more exposure from touching stuff contaminated with primer residue and then transferring that residue to their mouth when eating, drinking, or smoking.
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In the document linked above from the NIH, they say that Lead Acetate absorbed through the skin is only slightly transferred into the blood.  You could have a significant amount of Lead in other tissues from this type of exposure that wouldn't show up in a blood test.

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So, Peter, what's your blood lead level? Oh, you used the work vector.... Actually it's more of a scalar definition.  So was your undergraduate degree in? 3% acetic acid in household withe vinegar at room temp would take a hundred years to yield results. So what's your first hand knowledge? Did you reproduce that in the lab? 

 

99% of blood lead in shooters in inhaled. The OD of the bullet shearing at over 1,000 fps, the base melting from the ignition temperature of over 5,000F and the lead styphate compound from the primer (about 20%). The amount ingested is fractional. But the only way to know that is to have your blood lead tested. I have mine done every 4 months, how about you?

 

OP, if it's lead in your barrel, it will fizz.

Edited by 9x45
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Gezz, this thread is getting into a pissing match! This guy just needs help with his issues. Just don't get that cleaning mixture on your skin to be safe... Im headed to get the popcorn to watch the end of this one lol.

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OP, I have written up a cleaning protocol just for you. Keep in mind that this cocktail has been around for over 70 used, and used primarily by Bullseye shooters, which is where I learned it, So if your'e afraid to get this mixture on your skin, put on your elbow length rubber gloves, sun glasses, motorcycle helmet, and armored vest. Mix up 4 ounces of it (2 ozs of vinegar, 2 ozs of H2O2. Brass brush the barrel, Hoppes and dry it. Put a stopper in it, setting up right, pour it full, let set for 5 minutes. Pour it out, dip a patch in solution, thru that thru, then pout out whats left on a concrete driveway over paper towels. Let dry and inspect shiny barrel. Dispose of this in your neighbors garbage can. 

 

So to all of those that say is soo dangerous, compared to breathing in lead particles from gun exhaust, what is your blood lead level? There's 2 kinds of shooters here, the kind that talks, and the kind that tests. Only data is meaningful. 

 

This is my other kid, running a 180 gr Bear Creek in a G35. He got to a blood lead of 22 inside of 6 months, then switched to HiTek coated bullets. But if you don't test, you'll just never know.

 

image37561.jpg

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OP, totally forgot the hillbilly way. My good fried lives up near Princeton, Kentucky, and like he says "so far back in the woods, you have to pump the sunshine in and the moonshine out" Get out the old propane torch, get that barrel up to about 630F and the lead will just run out. Don't touch it until it cools, even though lead cannot be absorbed thru your skin or eye tissue.  Favorite method to get stacked squibs out of SS revolvers.....

Edited by 9x45
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