Help with Leading

[jschweg]

I've been reloading for quite a long time and I've never had a problem with leading before. I've always used coated bullets from the same company (Thousands of 125gn bullets with no problems). Im trying to develop a new 147gn load, but this is what my barrel looks like after a 60 round match with the barrel being completely clean beforehand. This leading right?

 

This is a coated 147gn, 3.4gn 231 @ 1.14
 
How exactly does a coated bullet lead like this? I know this is a stupid question, but if the bullet is encapsulated by the coating, how does it end up in my barrel?
 
I'm certain that I am not over crimping or under belling, I pulled a few bullets and there isn't any shaving going on.
 
Not sure if I can address it any other way than trying a different 147, but I'm just sort of clueless on this one.
 

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by jschweg

[TDA]

Looks like moly coated bullets.

 

Is that what you were using?

Edited March 30, 2017 by TDA

[jschweg]

Looks like moly coated bullets.
 
Is that what you were using?

They are Hi-Tek coated

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[9x45]

Not normal at all for HiTek coated, they are no leading. But completely normal for moly coated. Whose bullets are these? I've run them to over 1,280 fps with 124s and no leading at all.

 

125 Bear Creeks

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by 9x45

[jschweg]

Not normal at all for HiTek coated, they are no leading. But completely normal for moly coated. Whose bullets are these? I've run them to over 1,280 fps with 124s and no leading at all.

These are from Missouri Bullet Company, which I've been using for years in other weights and have been very happy with. I just don't remember my barrel ever looking like this.

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[dsa]

Have you measured the bullets?  Any chance that they are undersized for your barrel?

[atbarr]

I've shot thousands of http://www.bayoubullets.net in my G21 and G36, with absolutely no leading.

[Beef15]

1 hour ago, dsa said:

Have you measured the bullets?  Any chance that they are undersized for your barrel?

Also measure a few after pulling.

147s are notorious for being swaged down by the case if seated deep, case not expanded down far enough, and/using a FCD.

Bore fit seems slightly more tolerant with coated, but it can't be ignored completely, too loose and the coating will be flame/gas cut before the lead obturates.

[1991a1colt]

Even though they are coated we should go back to basics with this issue. First do a smash test and see if the coating is flaking off or is sticking as it should. What did your barrel slug at? What size bullets did you order and what size are they measuring at? If they are running small they can still flame cut and cause lead especially with some powders vs. others. Your bullets should be at least .001 larger then the bore size from your slug test. I run. 002 larger with a.357 sized bullet for 9mm. Missouri will work with you on your size if you need it. Did you change powders from 124 vs. 147?  

Edited March 30, 2017 by 1991a1colt

[PatJones]

Doesn't look like leading to me. Leading generally collects in the corners of the rifling. It looks like the coating, does it clean out easily with bore cleaner?

[9x45]

Hoppes would not touch what I was getting. I used the mixture of house hold strength white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, the old Bullseye shooters lead cocktail. 5 minutes of fizz and the lead is gone. Will not harm stainless steel. The lead oxidizes rapidly in the peroxide and remains in solution in the weak acid. In your case, if it's really not lead, it won't fizz. These were Bear Creek moly coated 125s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tyler2you]

16 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

I used the mixture of house hold strength white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, the old Bullseye shooters lead cocktail. 5 minutes of fizz and the lead is gone. Will not harm stainless steel. The lead oxidizes rapidly in the peroxide and remains in solution in the weak acid.

 

Just be careful with that solution when you're done.  It creates Lead Acetate which is very toxic and easily absorbed through the skin.  It should also be disposed of properly.

[9x45]

No, it does not create lead acetate with only 3% Hydrogen peroxide and 5% vinegar. It takes much, much higher concentrations and the solution has to boil.

 

Lead acetate can be made by boiling elemental lead in acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. This method of using acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide will also work with lead carbonate or lead oxide. Acetic acid starts to boil at 245F and peroxide at about 303F. Insufficient concentration of either solution and failure to reach the required boiling temperature and there will be no reaction. A successful reaction, after drying, yields a solid, lead acetate, which would then have to be ingested to cause harm.

 

Here it is dissolving my finger (not), solution temperature is 71F

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by 9x45

[lgh]

I agree - this might not be leading.  The lead cocktail is a good test to see if it's lead. There is enough of it that you should get fizz. Or just see if it scrubs out easily.  Lead usually won't scrub out easily. Or scrape it out and look at it under a magnifying glass.

 

9x45: gotta love your analysis!

[jschweg]

11 hours ago, 9x45 said:

Not normal at all for HiTek coated, they are no leading. But completely normal for moly coated. Whose bullets are these? I've run them to over 1,280 fps with 124s and no leading at all.

 

125 Bear Creeks

 

 

Okay, so my barrel looks exactly like your barrel. So if this isn't lead, then maybe this is just the coating being left in the barrel? Mine also seems to be collecting just like yours where it to be on top of the lands but not really down in the grooves.

 

If it is just the coating would this effect accuracy at all?

[jschweg]

26 minutes ago, lgh said:

I agree - this might not be leading.  The lead cocktail is a good test to see if it's lead. There is enough of it that you should get fizz. Or just see if it scrubs out easily.  Lead usually won't scrub out easily. Or scrape it out and look at it under a magnifying glass.

 

9x45: gotta love your analysis!

 

Yes, it comes out fairly easily with Hoppes, however I do have to run a bronze brush down the bore a few times to really get it all out. Since I don't have any previous experience with actual leading, this could not be that at all, but just don't know.

[jschweg]

4 hours ago, 1991a1colt said:

Even though they are coated we should go back to basics with this issue. First do a smash test and see if the coating is flaking off or is sticking as it should. What did your barrel slug at? What size bullets did you order and what size are they measuring at? If they are running small they can still flame cut and cause lead especially with some powders vs. others. Your bullets should be at least .001 larger then the bore size from your slug test. I run. 002 larger with a.357 sized bullet for 9mm. Missouri will work with you on your size if you need it. Did you change powders from 124 vs. 147?  

 

I've never officially slugged the bore because I've never had any perceived problems and have always just run .356 in coated. I can't say for sure, but I don't *think* my 124gn load with unique was doing this. Yes, I have changed powders, trying to run these 147's with 231.

[1991a1colt]

Did you hit one of the bullets with a hammer (bullet only! NOT a loaded round LoL) to see if the coating flaked off or does it stay on the lead? Also were the rounds accurate or did you have off POA/POI problems with keyholes. 

[tyler2you]

2 hours ago, 9x45 said:

No, it does not create lead acetate with only 3% Hydrogen peroxide and 5% vinegar. It takes much, much higher concentrations and the solution has to boil.

 

Not being a chemist and having heard it from so many sources, I believed it to be true.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/05/the-dip-a-toxic-mixture-used-to-clean-silencer-parts/

 

 

[Steve RA]

There is a considerable difference between 3% and 5% and a 50/50 mixture.

[tyler2you]

2 hours ago, Steve RA said:

There is a considerable difference between 3% and 5% and a 50/50 mixture.

 

I'm pretty sure the 5% is the amount of Acetic Acid in the Vinegar Solution and the 3% is Hydrogen Peroxide percentage.  Has nothing to do with the mix ratio.

 

 

[Steve RA]

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly.  A mixture of 5% of Acetic acid/95% water and 3% Hydrogen Peroxide/97% water would be much weaker than a mix of 100% Acetic Acid and 100% Hydrogen Peroxide which is how it is phrased in the following quote by 9X45 from above.

 

"No, it does not create lead acetate with only 3% Hydrogen peroxide and 5% vinegar. It takes much, much higher concentrations and the solution has to boil.

Lead acetate can be made by boiling elemental lead in acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. This method of using acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide will also work with lead carbonate or lead oxide. Acetic acid starts to boil at 245F and peroxide at about 303F. Insufficient concentration of either solution and failure to reach the required boiling temperature and there will be no reaction. A successful reaction, after drying, yields a solid, lead acetate, which would then have to be ingested to cause harm."

 

[tyler2you]

4 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly.  A mixture of 5% of Acetic acid/95% water and 3% Hydrogen Peroxide/97% water would be much weaker than a mix of 100% Acetic Acid and 100% Hydrogen Peroxide which is how it is phrased in the following quote by 9X45 from above

 

Roger that.  Maybe 9X45 is a Chemist or otherwise specially qualified to make the statements he made, but I've seen enough other sources claim that using a 50/50 mixture of 5% Vinegar and 3% Hydrogen Peroxide to remove lead is dangerous to question his qualifications/sources.  Maybe it's an old wive's tale, but I'd like to see something definitive.

[9x45]

The solution concentrations are 3% and 5%, but the mix ratio of the two components is 50/50, or an equal part of each. 

 

Typical concentrations of acetic acid for industrial use are from 36-99% (6-17 Mols/liter), and there is no such thing as 100% hydrogen peroxide (.3-9.7 Mols/liter), it is typically 3-35%, and values higher than that 30%, for either material, requires state permits to procure.  Between 35% and 90%, H2O2 requires special handling permits, and at 90% is quite unstable. The 90% concentration is used for rocket fuel. 

[jschweg]

5 hours ago, 1991a1colt said:

Did you hit one of the bullets with a hammer (bullet only! NOT a loaded round LoL) to see if the coating flaked off or does it stay on the lead? Also were the rounds accurate or did you have off POA/POI problems with keyholes. 

 

I will attempt to smash one later when I get home.

 

Accuracy is great, no keyholing, super happy with the actual performance of the load so far.