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Issue with 147gr Bayou Bullets?


RickT

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I've loaded 10's of thousands of these and most recently switch my load to 3.7gr N340 @1.14" OAL.  The load works great so I can use up a bunch of this powder.  When I started loading 3 years ago my go-to was WSF with this same bullet.

 

Here's the issue:  I've actually found separated cartridges in my bullet bin (1050, Redding Seater, Lee FCD).  I've made 100K rounds with an FCD so it's not the setup.  Here's what I've found in the processor of taking apart a bunch of completed rounds for an unrelated issue:  At 1.14" OAL there is not a great deal of bullet above the lube groove in the case.  In taking apart 100 or so rounds the ones that come apart easily have bullets with diameters below the lube groove at 3.515" or so, while above the lube groove the diameter is the more normal 3.555.  And, yes, I've seen similar variation in bullets that have not been seated and tapered with an FCD.

 

I'm going to send an e-mail to Bayou, but I can't imagine this is normal.  Of course I can decrease the OAL to capture more the the bullet above the groove, but am I mistaken in thinking there is something amiss?

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Had a long conversation with Dennis at Bayou.  I'm going to make some more measurements, but given they sell more 147s than any other bullet it's more likely than not that I'm picking up some bad brass, either very thin walled or brass that my Dillon die doesn't resize correctly.  I'm going to do further investigation.

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I'm not crimping, just taking the bell out, approximately .379". Powder is not compressed, only 3.7gr N340.  I think I'm seeing a combination of junk pick-up brass and the possible effect of using the Lee FCD on rounds with a great deal of bullet in the case.  I'm sure the bullets themselves are just fine, For whatever reason the bullets in the failed rounds have been slight decreased in diameter, almost as though the FCD compresses the bullet below the lube groove and the brass springs back greatly decreasing neck tension.

 

I've temporarily replaced the Lee FCD with a Hornady seater/crimp, but only dialed in the crimp.  The bullets all seem very tight and the rounds easily pass plunk.  I'm also considering a Lee Undersize Die to try and better renew over-expanded cases.

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Thanks for all the great information.  The strange thing is I've always used the FCD even back when I was loading on my LNL.  I've never seen this issue before.  But no doubt the 147gr bullets are getting swaged down at the base and I'm probably loading longer than in those early days which is probably exacerbating the problem.  I'll stick with the Hornady I've installed and just buy a dedicated crimp die.  With my wife's short 115gr Acme bullets the FCD wasn't causing any problem, but not doubt it wasn't solving anything..

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Rick

Most folks who shoot and load enough know about FCD and not to over adjust them.

just enough to get the crimp you want.

Going to another die solves a problem of the FCD and may open up another one with type of Crimp die.

All of this can be problematic but is some of the enjoyment of using your equipment rather than just reading books about it and restating know info.

So like Rob L says my callous is from my pistol not my keyboard, just keep loading and shooting until you work out the combo for your gear.

I've used FCD for years in old Colt SAA with cyl to barrel differences .002 once you get over that the size ring causes some problems.

Try getting on Lee's site and re reading the instructions and re setting that die up and hopefully it will work for both bullets.

 

lots of 147 Bayou's have been loaded with a FCD involved in the press so you'll get it figured out

Good fortune

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I load .357 plated bullets.  I use the FCD.  I use it to remove the flare to .3765.  It depends on the shell thickness.  The FCD can remove the bulge in the shell, if you have one.  My settings can or cannot swag the bullet.  To experiment... turn the crimp adjuster all the way in on the die, then adjust the die to crimp the mouth of the shell to your setting.  The FCD, except for the crimp, will not even touch the shell.  I like to get rid of any bulge I have in the shells, so sometimes I swag the bullet .0005 more than if I didn't use it.  I love how we talk in ten thousands or even thousands when it depends at what place on the shell we measure since the shell is not perfectly round.  So, all measurements are an average.  The FCD is adjustable.

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I went through 800 rounds by hand looking at headstamps and trying to take apart the rounds by hand.  9 of 10 rounds with CBC headstamps I could take apart easily by hand.  Searching for CBC issues I would say results are mixed: some swear by CBC, some swear at CBC.  I don't know why my current setup doesn't handle this brass and I'm going to stop using it in any event, but I've begun producing perfectly acceptable ammo without the FCD and I'm going to continue on that path.  I'll also take a look at my FCD adjustment as well, but I had produced over 100K rounds using an FCD without a problem.  It doesn't appear that the FCD is particularly well-suited for deep-seated coated lead rounds; you learn something new every day.

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My prior post probably wasn't clear.  Out of 800 cases only 10 were CBC, but of the 10 I could pull 9 apart by hand.  I just plugged in the Hornady in lieu of the FCD to see how things worked, but I've ordered a dedicated taper/crimp die.  Most of my pickup brass comes out of our guns (we use a tarp for practice) although I do pick up other brass on occasion.  I'll never load a CBC case again.

In my early days of reloading I had the usual challenge figuring out how to get a combination seater/crimp die to work and when I went with separate die I selected the FCD since it all but eliminates rounds not passing the plunk test.  I do think it's a bit of a crutch unless something else is going on with the brass.  The 800 rounds I made after a moved out the FCD a few days ago all passes gauge and barrel.

I does seem as though the first stage is the one where it's best to "fix" the case profile if necessary, using a U die or similar, not after you've seated the bullet at which time you can experience unintended consequences.   I definitely do not want to swage the base of the bullet as I need all the accuracy out of the bullet I can manage to compensate for my own contribution.

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I personally knocked the FCD ring out of all my FCD dies, so it's just a regular crimp die now. Some brands of brass are pretty thick, and they got squoze so hard through the fcd ring that the swaged the bullets down smaller. I suspect then the brass can rebound, but the lead doesn't, leaving a loose fit.

 

without an fcd, I find that just about everything that isn't obviously damaged still plunks in the barrel, but about 10% of 9mm rounds don't quite case gauge (probably some 9mm major brass and stuff). So I just use those for practice and they run fine.

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I personally knocked the FCD ring out of all my FCD dies, so it's just a regular crimp die now. Some brands of brass are pretty thick, and they got squoze so hard through the fcd ring that the swaged the bullets down smaller. I suspect then the brass can rebound, but the lead doesn't, leaving a loose fit.

 

without an fcd, I find that just about everything that isn't obviously damaged still plunks in the barrel, but about 10% of 9mm rounds don't quite case gauge (probably some 9mm major brass and stuff). So I just use those for practice and they run fine.

W/O the FCD, I found about 10% of my 147gr bayou's didn't pass case gauge either. If the FCD is swaging my bullets, it isn't enough for me to notice when I shoot.

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17 minutes ago, v1911 said:

W/O the FCD, I found about 10% of my 147gr bayou's didn't pass case gauge either. If the FCD is swaging my bullets, it isn't enough for me to notice when I shoot.

yeah, it was more of a theoretical worry for me. Oddly, my 40 and 45's are more like 99% case-gauging without the fcd ring. Not sure why 9 is different. i don't stress too much about the ones that just barely poke up, because I know they all plunk and run great. the gauge just helps me find the split cases and the weird bulges, and gives me an opportunity to visually inspect all the primers.

 

one of the things that made me want to remove the ring is just how much more effort is required on the downstroke with thicker brass like pmc. With federal brass, it generally barely even touched.

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I had accuracy problems when using the FCD with lead and coated bullet. The die was swaging my bullets down, it work fine with jacketed bullet. I no longer us FCD in any caliber,  I use standard taper crimp dies. The other day I weighed several cases because the CBC cases were giving me issues. The following wts in grn's average of 5 cases. .

Blazer 59.98, CBC 58.44, F.C. 60.48, PMC 58.56, PPU 55.28, R-P 58.22, Speer 60.94, Win Brass 58.54, Win Nickel 58.24.

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