motosapiens Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, EngineerEli said: Pretty sure the hand and knee part is not correct. I recall one stage where there was a real tough shot around a wall, and the end of the wall was outside of the shooting area, but we had the CRO confirm we were allowed to hold on to the wall with one hand if we wanted to take the shot one handed. I I would have given you a procedural per-shot fired unless the wall was touching the fault line (and therefore 'inside the shooting area') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, Sarge said: Standing on fault lines has been the norm as long as I have been shooting. Not as long as many but its been almost ten years. That's one of the first things I learned actually. Understood, and I agree with your statement. What I stated is a personal opinion, admittedly at odds with the rules and current interpretations. I get it. But like I said, don't mean I have to like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 51 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I would have given you a procedural per-shot fired unless the wall was touching the fault line (and therefore 'inside the shooting area') Now that you say that, that may have been the situation actually, wall was touching the fault line.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, EngineerEli said: Now that you say that, that may have been the situation actually, wall was touching the fault line.... If it's touching the shooting area, or Fault Line than it isnt wholly out and is fair game. 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6) Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground) leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least one foot on the ground inside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said: Understood, and I agree with your statement. What I stated is a personal opinion, admittedly at odds with the rules and current interpretations. I get it. But like I said, don't mean I have to like it! I get you. To add, I'm all for gaming a stage and I don't like the way IDPA does things to basically eliminate gaming but man it seems like we could reach a happy medium. It's one thing to design a stage and get gamed because you missed something. It's another to have to write a WSB like an iron clad legal document. I have it on pretty good authority that saying, completely outside the shooting area doesn't even work depending on RM. some of the stage descriptions you'll see at Ohio may say something like, outside the shooting area with feet flat on ground not touching fault lines! JESUS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosher Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Kraj said: If it's touching the shooting area, or Fault Line than it isnt wholly out and is fair game. If it's a wall, touching in and out it's considered to be in. If it is a person touching in and out, then it's considered out. And if the person is in and out and touching the wall touching in and out, then the person is considered in. Green eggs and ham lol! We went to "Standing outside the shooting area, feet on XX's" and nail an extra set of XX's on the ground. (We nail them both outside, not one in one out.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: OK ... I'm the dinosaur in the group. (George already knows this!) Personally, I see no reason to EVER specify a starting position outside the shooting area. It's a silly concept with no other earthly purpose than to play "Gotcha" if the shooter fails to fully lift his trailing foot prior to firing the first shot. Just my point of view ... That said, I fully understand the current concepts and rules application and I can, do, and will abide by them ... Doesn't mean I have to like 'em! Starting "outside" is a distraction from the shooting, right? I think that's as valid a challenge, as creating a start position "inside" that requires movement before being able to see targets..... Then again -- if I care about specificity, I tend to be very specific about where I want hands and feet to be at the start. The rest of the time, I'm as likely to specify a starting position anywhere inside or outside the FFZ, facing in the direction of shooters choice, with hands in any legal position, i.e. not touching gun/ancillary equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Different strokes, Nik. Different strokes. As I said, just my point of view ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 22 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Different strokes, Nik. Different strokes. As I said, just my point of view ... If I lived closer, I'd come shoot your matches -- even if you make me start inside the fault lines on every stage.... :-) I was playing Devil's advocate for the rest of audience..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 The Devil's Advocate is the debate version of USPSA's Gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, George Jones said: The Devil's Advocate is the debate version of USPSA's Gamer. Two thoughts come to mind: Who, me? and: You ought to know -- you've encountered me enough in person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 What does starting have to do with faulting? "I'm outside the line." No... one of your feet is, YOU are inside the line. This silly type nonsense (either side of this, the mere argument itself) is by far the thing I hate the most about USPSA. Sure, a better WSB would solve this. Or we couple just have some honor and some class. I know, too much to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 1 hour ago, cas said: What does starting have to do with faulting? "I'm outside the line." No... one of your feet is, YOU are inside the line. This silly type nonsense (either side of this, the mere argument itself) is by far the thing I hate the most about USPSA. Sure, a better WSB would solve this. Or we couple just have some honor and some class. I know, too much to ask. Honor and class have nothing to do with it. DNROI says that's how it is, so that's how I'm playing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Honor and class have nothing to do with it. DNROI says that's how it is, so that's how I'm playing the game.Who cares what the start position is as long as the expectations are the same for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, PatJones said: Who cares what the start position is as long as the expectations are the same for everyone. Exactly. But what this thread is about is a start position somewhat surrounded by confusion and obscurity. This start position was allowed to competitors at A3 last year on quite a few stages. When some people tried this in our very own ECO section, some people didn't think it was legal and didn't allow it. I think it's a pretty lame start position but like I said, Troy said it's GTG so I'm going to do it....If someone feels like they have too much "honor" and "class" to do it, by all means they shouldn't do it. Edited March 24, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 If it bothers you, just make sure your MD specifies "both feet outside the shooting area" and then everyone will be equal and unhappy as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 44 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: If it bothers you, just make sure your MD specifies "both feet outside the shooting area" and then everyone will be equal and unhappy as a team. Even that can be gamed by standing on fault lines with a toes touching the ground outside. That why the words fully etc must be in there or better yet "not touching faultlines". Seen it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Just now, Sarge said: Even that can be gamed by standing on fault lines with a toes touching the ground outside. That why the words fully etc must be in there or better yet "not touching faultlines". Seen it done. I guess I'm just less OCD than some, since I know that guy. We all know that guy. He never seems to win much of anything. Usually because he's too busy figuring out how to game the crap out of the start position while the winner is quietly visualizing how he'll engage the targets. So it doesn't bother me when guys do that stuff. There's no actual advantage to it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said: I guess I'm just less OCD than some, since I know that guy. We all know that guy. He never seems to win much of anything. Usually because he's too busy figuring out how to game the crap out of the start position while the winner is quietly visualizing how he'll engage the targets. So it doesn't bother me when guys do that stuff. There's no actual advantage to it anyway. i have noticed the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Amazing! If a rule (or an official interpretation of a rule) says that one foot inside and one foot outside is defined as being outside, then that's the rule. It is not worth a bunch of bitching, it's just a definition. It makes total sense that "outside" has a consistent meaning in the sport, not one meaning when starting and another when shooting. It's shocking what people will spend time complaining about. It's the f**king rule! It's not a serious issue.If you don't like one in/one out then don't do it. Nobody is making you start that way. Once again the internet appears to be a prime tool for complaining about anything whether or not it is important. Why anyone would agree to attempt to manage this sport is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Well, it's more fun to complain than to practice, y'know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 6 hours ago, Brooke said: It makes total sense that "outside" has a consistent meaning in the sport, not one meaning when starting and another when shooting. you are confusing being outside with 'faulting'. they are not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooke Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 16 hours ago, motosapiens said: you are confusing being outside with 'faulting'. they are not the same thing. Is that the best you got? Faulting is touching the ground (and other things) beyond the fault lines. Same damn thing. This is a ridiculous discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Faulting is touching outside, AND firing a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 3 hours ago, Brooke said: Faulting is touching the ground (and other things) beyond the fault lines. Same damn thing. Like I said earlier if you're not shooting you're not faulting. Being outside the shooting area and faulting are two entirely different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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