MAC702 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Here's an experience from last weekend's March Madness event in Las Vegas. Several of the stages were to start outside of the fault lines. Initially I was in Squad 2, and that's where I did my first prep period. The squad decided that it was legal to start with one foot in the fault line and the other out. Their reasoning was that a shot fired in such a position would be "out." I didn't like it, but without being able to give a rule (my book was in the truck and it would probably take too long to find something) I just said that it wasn't my reasoning. This was a level 1 and there were no trophy girls, so I'm not running to the MD. Anyway, it then turns out that my name was no longer in the squad list and I was now in Squad 3. So I had to run next door and watch other shooters to figure out what to do there. I was one of few Single Stacks (and Major at that) in the match, and had to do stages very differently from everyone else, but I was far enough down the list to be okay. Anyway, when I mentioned to the squad what the other squad was doing for "starting outside of the fault lines," it was universally agreed that that was wrong, and we were going to start with both feet outside. So now I'm home with my rule book in my hands trying to find the definite rule to address it. One thing I'm noticing is that "Fault Line" in the Glossary is defined as: "A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area." Since it refers to the shooting area, it gives more evidence to a starting position being with both feet outside of the lines. What else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Well, I'm on the side of your former squad mates. Unless the WSB said both feet outside, or completely outside the shooting area they were correct. I have verified that with the NROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Depends on the wsb. But if all it said was start outside, they were outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 39 minutes ago, MAC702 said: Here's an experience from last weekend's March Madness event in Las Vegas. Several of the stages were to start outside of the fault lines. Initially I was in Squad 2, and that's where I did my first prep period. The squad decided that it was legal to start with one foot in the fault line and the other out. Their reasoning was that a shot fired in such a position would be "out." I didn't like it, but without being able to give a rule (my book was in the truck and it would probably take too long to find something) I just said that it wasn't my reasoning. This was a level 1 and there were no trophy girls, so I'm not running to the MD. Anyway, it then turns out that my name was no longer in the squad list and I was now in Squad 3. So I had to run next door and watch other shooters to figure out what to do there. I was one of few Single Stacks (and Major at that) in the match, and had to do stages very differently from everyone else, but I was far enough down the list to be okay. Anyway, when I mentioned to the squad what the other squad was doing for "starting outside of the fault lines," it was universally agreed that that was wrong, and we were going to start with both feet outside. So now I'm home with my rule book in my hands trying to find the definite rule to address it. One thing I'm noticing is that "Fault Line" in the Glossary is defined as: "A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area." Since it refers to the shooting area, it gives more evidence to a starting position being with both feet outside of the lines. What else? Rule book would have done you no good. You need to google NROI interpretations, opinions, clarifications, hunches, etc to find it. It has been deemed legal to have one in and one out and be called outside the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 The first squad pretty much had me convinced it was legal even though i didn't like it, and firmly believed it outside of the MD's intention, and then the more I thought about it, the more I didn't like it and figured it was probably wrong, but I wasn't going to do anything about it. Then the second squad, which had much older USPSA shooters, convinced me I was right. I agree that going through the rule book this evening hasn't done me any good. I give no fault whatsoever to "gamers." That's the rules. It's a sport. And the writers need to get better at anticipating it. Thanks, guys. It nice to see some uniformity in the opinions here so far. I give a lot more credence to the discussions here than on the typical local squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 It's not in the rule book or interpretations. I believe DNROI announced it in Front Sight a couple of issues ago. That's the third legitimate place to announce rules or interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Having one foot touching the ground outside a shooting box/area is faulting. Faulting means you are "out" of the box/area. If the author of the WSB wanted everyone to start "fully outside" ( meaning both feet out), he should have said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 1 minute ago, George Jones said: Having one foot touching the ground outside a shooting box/area is faulting. Faulting means you are "out" of the box/area. If the author of the WSB wanted everyone to start "fully outside" ( meaning both feet out), he should have said so. While I know this is the interpretation, I will always believe it to be incorrect. If the WSB says stand outside the shooting area, having one foot inside would be "faulting" the other way. I use the "mom" interpretation, which is, if you mom told you to go outside and you straddled the threshold, she would have slapped you the rest of the way out:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 8 minutes ago, RJH said: While I know this is the interpretation, I will always believe it to be incorrect. If the WSB says stand outside the shooting area, having one foot inside would be "faulting" the other way. I use the "mom" interpretation, which is, if you mom told you to go outside and you straddled the threshold, she would have slapped you the rest of the way out:-) I agree completely and that's a damn funny way to explain it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RJH said: While I know this is the interpretation, I will always believe it to be incorrect. If the WSB says stand outside the shooting area, having one foot inside would be "faulting" the other way. ... Perfectly described why my gut says this as well. The glossary definition of the fault lines for shooting area is why I want what you say to be correct. We are now dealing with a starting position, not a shooting position, therefore touching the inside at all should be a fault when told to start outside. Edited March 22, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Where the hell is bret? He loves this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 The rules say to shoot from the inside, making anything touching outside a fault. So if told to start outside, it seems that anything touching inside would be a fault. But I will certainly yield to settled consistency from the authority. My greatest fear has been relaxed however. I was so sure I was going to get flamed for asking a stupid and obvious question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, MAC702 said: The rules say to shoot from the inside, making anything touching outside a fault. So if told to start outside, it seems that anything touching inside would be a fault. But I will certainly yield to settled consistency from the authority. My greatest fear has been relaxed however. I was so sure I was going to get flamed for asking a stupid and obvious question! You can't fault unless you fire a shot. Now you are getting close to stupid and obvious questions. LOL Edited March 22, 2017 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I've been down this road before too. They guys I shoot with, many of which very high level shooters, and ROs, agree with the first explanation. They actually went a step further and would start one foot fully inside, then the other on the wood fault line, and a toe angled down to touch the ground outside the shooting area, at the buzzer, they lifted their toe and began shooting. You can stand on a fault line and your are inside the shooting area, but touch a toe down outside the shooting area and you out... I will say that for all the stages we design, if we really want the shooter to start outside the shooting area, we just say " fully outside the shooting area" that eliminates any potential for gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosher Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Inside means inside, outside means outside. Both means both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 47 minutes ago, mosher said: Inside means inside, outside means outside. Both means both. This. Been covered before. --here-- . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) Forum software caused a double-post. Please ignore this one, as it also doesn't seem to allow a deletion. Edited March 22, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 Thanks for that link, GregJ, even if it was a 7-page argument and I had to look through it to find the answer, which is still a third-hand "this is what Troy says." (Actually, note my EDIT below.) At least we have something on which to base some consistency, though it seems obvious there is ambiguity enough in the rules for an amendment for clarification, as we will continue to see competitors doing things differently. If seasoned vets insist on disadvantaging themselves, that's one thing, but when they basically "don't allow" the rookies in their squad to do something, we have a problem. Some of you will just blame the rookies for not being insistent about their interpretation of the ambiguity. Most competitors do not get to hear Troy's official third-hand opinions from these various sources. That thread even had an RO admit he's happy to bust a guys chops for following this rule interpretation, and right before he's trying to prep himself for his shoot. Sarge: My usage of "fault" was intended to be plain English, not a legal definition, and had an obvious meaning in each context. I now have some confidence in what the consistency should be, even though I am one of many who seem to disagree with Troy on this one. I will inform my squads accordingly, and I wager most will still want to do it "outside." EDIT: I just reread that other thread a bit. I find it quit a significant difference that the argument there is based on a starting position of "outside the shooting area." This thread is based on the starting position of "outside of the fault lines." I think that makes it a different argument. "Outside of the shooting area" would be one foot touching outside. "Outside of the fault lines" would reverse what would be a "fault," wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 OK ... I'm the dinosaur in the group. (George already knows this!) Personally, I see no reason to EVER specify a starting position outside the shooting area. It's a silly concept with no other earthly purpose than to play "Gotcha" if the shooter fails to fully lift his trailing foot prior to firing the first shot. Just my point of view ... That said, I fully understand the current concepts and rules application and I can, do, and will abide by them ... Doesn't mean I have to like 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Here is a nice in and out sampler... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, teros135 said: It's not in the rule book or interpretations. I believe DNROI announced it in Front Sight a couple of issues ago. That's the third legitimate place to announce rules or interpretations. Yep. It is completely wrong and dumb, and makes a mockery of mathematics and logic, but Troy's ruling means we have all agreed to be wrong together, in the same way. One foot outside of the fault lines is considered 'out', even tho it isn't really, but we can all pretend. One foot out is actually only a 'foot fault', which is an entirely different thing. I would guess with the same failed logic, standing with both feet in and touching something outside the shooting area with your hand or knee would also be considered 'out', lol. Edited March 22, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 I'll go one step further, Moto ... I don't really agree with the concept of allowing a shooter to start standing "on the fault lines when the description states "inside the fault lines." Inside the fault lines means just that - not on top of the fault lines. But as I said before ... I fully understand the current concepts and rules application and I can, do, and will abide by them ... Doesn't mean I have to like 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Schutzenmeister said: I'll go one step further, Moto ... I don't really agree with the concept of allowing a shooter to start standing "on the fault lines when the description states "inside the fault lines." Inside the fault lines means just that - not on top of the fault lines. But as I said before ... I fully understand the current concepts and rules application and I can, do, and will abide by them ... Doesn't mean I have to like 'em! Standing on fault lines has been the norm as long as I have been shooting. Not as long as many but its been almost ten years. That's one of the first things I learned actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said: I'll go one step further, Moto ... I don't really agree with the concept of allowing a shooter to start standing "on the fault lines when the description states "inside the fault lines." Inside the fault lines means just that - not on top of the fault lines. But as I said before ... would be better english to write 'standing inside the shooting area', and standing on the fault lines is clearly inside the shooting area. I personally never use the phrase 'fault lines' in a wsb. Edited March 22, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 19 minutes ago, motosapiens said: Yep. It is completely wrong and dumb, and makes a mockery of mathematics and logic, but Troy's ruling means we have all agreed to be wrong together, in the same way. One foot outside of the fault lines is considered 'out', even tho it isn't really, but we can all pretend. One foot out is actually only a 'foot fault', which is an entirely different thing. I would guess with the same failed logic, standing with both feet in and touching something outside the shooting area with your hand or knee would also be considered 'out', lol. Pretty sure the hand and knee part is not correct. I recall one stage where there was a real tough shot around a wall, and the end of the wall was outside of the shooting area, but we had the CRO confirm we were allowed to hold on to the wall with one hand if we wanted to take the shot one handed. I've never heard of any reference to, or experienced a situation where someone had a knee fault... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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