nuidad

Rounds per View

39 posts in this topic

Is this a legal stage?
 
16 classic paper targets.  Best two per target.  Targets T-1 to T-15 can be engaged from the first view/location.  Targets T-2 to T-16 can be engaged from the second view/location. So, to complete the stage you must shoot from both locations.   
Edited by nuidad
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16 targets, 2 rds each = 32 rds.  2 views isn't enough.  Will require way more than 8 shots from each view.  Need to have at least 4 positions/views to be legal.

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11 hours ago, nuidad said:
Is this a legal stage?
 
16 classic paper targets.  Best two per target.  Targets T-1 to T-15 can be engaged from the first view/location.  Targets T-2 to T-16 can be engaged from the second view/location. So, to complete the stage you must shoot from both locations.   

more info needed

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Yup, 

 

1.2.1.3 Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

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1.2.1.3. Long course

Can't be required to shoot more than 8 scoring hits per view or position, nor shoot the whole COF from one position.  

 

Of interest, at L1 and L2 you can have more than 32 rounds in the course.  Great for "monster matches".

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However, it's okay to be able to shoot more than 8 scoring hits from a single position/view, you just can't require it.

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Not at all.

 

To shoot that stage you MUST fire 8 shots from one position or another.

 

To put it very simply:

 

The stage may be designed so that open shooters can shoot the vast majority of the stage from one position. That's fine.

 

The stage cannot force a production or revolver shooter to perform a flat-footed reload and continue shooting from that location.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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52 minutes ago, nuidad said:

RJH:  What info am I missing.

Can you shoot at all between the ports/ locations?  Do you have the actual stage description or drawing?  Are there any other areas where targets can be engaged?  If the stage is, "shoot target 1 must be shot from box A and target 16 must be shot from box B" and you are at a level 1 match, it might be legal. They way you described it assuming ONLY 2 boxes or ports, then it would not be legal, but sometimes there is more to the story....

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53 minutes ago, nuidad said:

teros135: So is it a legal stage design?

 

No, it's not legal.  Regardless of who's shooting (Open, Revolver, whatever) you can't require that anyone shoot more than 8 scoring hits from any one position or view.  You have to break the arrays up.  If there are only two shooting positions and you can see 15 of 16 targets from one position and 15 of 16 targets from the other position, you're being forced to shoot more than 8 shots from one of those two positions.  Read the rule book, it's in there. 

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1 minute ago, RJH said:

Can you shoot at all between the ports/ locations?  Do you have the actual stage description or drawing?  Are there any other areas where targets can be engaged?  If the stage is, "shoot target 1 must be shot from box A and target 16 must be shot from box B" and you are at a level 1 match, it might be legal. They way you described it assuming ONLY 2 boxes or ports, then it would not be legal, but sometimes there is more to the story....

 

Not exactly, as I read this.  You still can't force more than 8 scoring hits from any one position.  You can force someone into a position by putting a single target in it that can only be engaged from there, but you still have to make sure you're not forcing more than 8 shots from any single position/view. 

 

As RJH asked, are there other shooting positions between the two locations?  If not, it's definitely not legal.  If yes, are you holding to the "rule of 8"?  You can have targets that can be seen/shot from more than one position, and you might be able to shoot more than 4 targets from one position, but are you forcing/requiring more than 8 shots from one position?  That, you can't do. 

 

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For the purpose of this discussion, and for clarification, there are only the two shooting ports/positions/views available on the COF.  Also check 9.5.1 and see if it plays into the ruling.

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2 minutes ago, nuidad said:

For the purpose of this discussion, and for clarification, there are only the two shooting ports/positions/views available on the COF.  Also check 9.5.1 and see if it plays into the ruling.

Only if you are scoring 1 hit per target instead of 2.  If there was only 1 hit per target on 16 targets,  or 8 targets total with 2 per target for a total of 16 required hits on target then it would be a legal stage

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23 minutes ago, nuidad said:

For the purpose of this discussion, and for clarification, there are only the two shooting ports/positions/views available on the COF.  Also check 9.5.1 and see if it plays into the ruling.

 

No, it's not legal.  9.5.1 says "unless specified otherwise in the WSB", and the OP's question said "best two per target".  There's no "one hit per target" on the table.  Just change it, add some walls/barrels, make it legal. 

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Teros135:  I agree this stage is not the greatest design and I would not design a stage like this, even if it is legal.  It's just hypothetical, but understanding why it's legal or not legal could come into play during a match where the "Rounds Per View" issue raises it's ugly head.  

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By the way...this controversy comes from an article posted in the NROI tab on the USPSA website https://www.uspsa.org/NROI-stage-design.php.  I'm not sure when the article was written...may have been before the February 2014 Rules update.  In which case, the article may no longer be valid since the issue was addressed in the 2014 update https://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/2014 Rules Changes.pdf.

 

If the article information is still valid (written after the update), I will probably need to "update" my thinking on the Rounds Per View rule.  I was hoping someone would mention that they were familiar with the update of this issue and be able to set me straight quickly. 

 

I tried posting this topic in this manner, but no one responded...it's pretty boring when you look at it from this perspective.

 

I have a call out to Kevin Imel (the author) for clarification but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.

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To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to figure out. It's very clear in the rule book and was spelled out very plainly by at least three people above.

 

The stage isn't legal if you HAVE to fire more than 8 shots from one position.

 

The stage is still legal if you CAN fire more than 8 shots from one position.

 

The end.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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I forget exactly when Kevin wrote this for publication, but it was in the last 2-3 years, as I recall.  In any case, it is still the current doctrine as supported by the rules and taught by (to the best of my knowledge) all the RMIs.

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The article by Kevin still applies.  Think about it this way: for a 32 rd stage to be legal, there needs to be at least 4 positions or views on the stage.  There are at least 8 shots available from each view.  But there can be some targets that can be seen from more than one position or view.  So the shooter has the option of taking more than 8 shots from a view or less than 8 shots from another view.  With only 2 views on the hypothetical 32 rd stage, there is at minimum 16 shots required from each view.  If the stage had 4 positions/views and the shooter made the choice to take 16 shots from 2 views it would be legal because the shooter chose to shoot the stage that way, because of freestyle and all.  That is why people are asking if there are other views available versus only having 2 views total.

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this rule hasn't changed in any substantial way to my knowledge in the 5 years i've been shooting and RO-ing.

 

as memphismechanic notes, if you *have* to fire more than 8 rounds from a particular position, the stage is not legal. period. end of story. In the original scenario, you HAVE to fire more than 8 rounds from at least one of the two positions. stage not legal. the end.

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Got it!   I got clarification from Kevin.  There were more than the two shooting positions.  Thank you all.

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The way I explain it for instances like this is there has to be a solution to the stage that doesn't require more than 8 rounds form any view or location. the solution avaliable is not required to be good it is just required to exist. 

 

I think the best example of this I have seen was a stage at the WSSSC  this year that had a barrel stack in front of a shooting box to the right there were 5 poppers to the left there were 5 poppers  in front there were 3 paper (best 2) so the 8 round solution was to one side of the barrel stack shoot  5 poppers 2 on one paper and 1 on another paper, then to the other side of the barrels do the same. The competitive solution for SS Major was 9 to one side and 7 on the other, but the 8 and 8 option existed and that is all that matters.

 

 

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The challenging part of this discussion hasn't been brought up yet.  What qualifies as a different view?  

 

In the first array of 16, if you could see an array of 8 a few steps from a spot where you could see the other 8, I'm calling this stage legal.  Not the best design, but legal.

Edited by d_striker

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Just now, d_striker said:

The challenging part of this discussion hasn't been brought up yet.  What qualifies as a different view?  

 

 

I had that discussion with kevin Imel when proofing stages for a section match a couple years ago. His opinion was that a step or two makes it a different view.

 

My opinion is if there are no vision barriers, or different targets being exposed, it's the same view. For example, if I can see 6 targets, and take 1-2 steps forward and see 2 more (so now I can see all 8) those are 2 different views. OTOH, if I take 2 steps and can still only see the same 6 targets, and not from different ports or doorways or whatever, it's all one view. Of course my opinion doesn't matter.

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