Johrichal

Shooting test groups during load work up

22 posts in this topic

Just wanted to get a few opinions from some people with far more experience than me.

 

So I went to the range the other day to test out the various different loads ive been working on. I was shooting from a bench with a rest and shooting 5 shot test groups. I noticed that just about every 5 shot group I shot had a flyer that was on average about 1.5" off the rest and im sure it has to do with me and not holding perfectly on my POA.

So I was wondering what you guys think about using a rail mounted laser sight while shooting from a bench to keep POA more consistent and give a more accurate representation of group sizing. 

Ive never really used a laser sight before but do have an older streamlight one laying around that I bought years ago and never installed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the laser looses its zero you have really screwed up this theory. So why add another variable that could cause you problems. Not being an ass that's just how I see this going


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're talking semi-auto here your problem could be that the first round that you chamber in the gun is hitting at a different POI from the rest that are chambered by the action.  Common phenomena with most semi's.  Even when I use a Ransom Rest, I "throw away" the first round in the gun before getting down to the real testing with rounds that were chambered by the gun's action.

 

YMMV

 

Alan~^~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shoot larger-populated groups.

 

If 14 rounds go true and 1 is a full two inches off, it's much more likely that it's you. 

 

Also, work hard on learning to call your shots. You should know you threw round #3 high and left before the bullet reaches the target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Shoot larger-populated groups.

 

If 14 rounds go true and 1 is a full two inches off, it's much more likely that it's you. 

 

Also, work hard on learning to call your shots. You should know you threw round #3 high and left before the bullet reaches the target.

That was my next step. I was going to shoot 15-20 rnds at 30ft(as far as my local ranges pistol side goes) and also 15-20 on the rifle side of the range at 25yds.

 

34 minutes ago, Alan550 said:

If you're talking semi-auto here your problem could be that the first round that you chamber in the gun is hitting at a different POI from the rest that are chambered by the action.  Common phenomena with most semi's.  Even when I use a Ransom Rest, I "throw away" the first round in the gun before getting down to the real testing with rounds that were chambered by the gun's action.

 

YMMV

 

Alan~^~

Thats very interesting I had never heard of that before ill have to look into it. Do you have any idea why?

50 minutes ago, mwray said:

If the laser looses its zero you have really screwed up this theory. So why add another variable that could cause you problems. Not being an ass that's just how I see this going


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I believe the laser I have is fixed ill have to take a look at it but i dont think there is any adjustments on it and it fits very tight on the rail. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can do it without moving the laser I say go for it. Use 1 set distance and set the laser to co-witness with your sights if you can. If you can't then you'll need to determine how much lower point-of-impact is below line-of-sight which probably means you'll need to shoot groups with and without the laser. I'd probably do this at 50' or 15 yards and once you're on, 10 round groups can help.

 

Regarding the flyer; is it consistently the first shot, or a particular one in the 5 shot string?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didnt pay attention to wether or not it was always the same round but next time I definately will. As far as co witnessing the laser to my sights like I said im not sure if thats possible because i dont think there is any adjustment on it but if I hold the laser on my POA the same everytime it shouldnt matter as long as the laser doesnt move. At least thats my theory on it it seems to me as long as my POI is consistent than POI should be as well and where the POI is doesnt really matter to me as I dont plan on actually using a laser sight for any other situation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Johrichal said:

I didnt pay attention to wether or not it was always the same round but next time I definately will.

 

As others have mentioned above, really not necessary.

 

When I shoot a group, I always fire the first shot into the berm and THEN fire

12-15 shots at the target, very slowly from a solid bench rest.

 

BTW, there is no way you should have a shot 1.5" off center at only 10 yards, unless

you're shooting a very small pocket pistol.  Even with a first shot being off center.   :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason many guns throw the first round by a small amount is simply because the gun loads itself very consistently. And not the way you load it manually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, mwray said:

If the laser looses its zero you have really screwed up this theory.

 

Ditto.  I use anything I can to optimize checking accuracy of new loads but this is the problem. So be sure to have a way to check your zero occasionally.  Otherwise you can really end up in a confusing situation with your reloads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Johrichal said:

I didnt pay attention to wether or not it was always the same round but next time I definately will. As far as co witnessing the laser to my sights like I said im not sure if thats possible because i dont think there is any adjustment on it but if I hold the laser on my POA the same everytime it shouldnt matter as long as the laser doesnt move. At least thats my theory on it it seems to me as long as my POI is consistent than POI should be as well and where the POI is doesnt really matter to me as I dont plan on actually using a laser sight for any other situation

I'm curious how a laser could be effective without there being a way to adjust it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took a look at it this morning and there is an adjustment on it. I just never saw it before because it is an extremely small hex head screw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not quibbling with other's comments, but I have never seen the first round off phenomenon.  All three of my competition pistols will put all bullets in the same hole at 15 yards.  What I have noticed is if I clean the bore, then oil it, i have to shoot at least five rounds before it shoots to POA again.  Usually I fire 10 just to be sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Johrichal said:

 there is an adjustment on it.  it is an extremely small hex head screw

 

Yup, that's all there is, and all you need :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, zzt said:

  I have never seen the first round off phenomenon.  if I clean the bore,  i have to shoot  five rounds before it shoots to POA again. 

 

Uh, isn't that the same thing?    :huh:

 

Except, instead of seeing "the first round phen", you are seeing "the first FIVE round phen" ???

 

Anyway, seems like a smart idea, if you're shooting for group size/POI, to fire at least one

(or ten) into the berm, before recording your hits.   :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not the same Jack.  Above they were saying it was the difference in the way the round fed into the gun on the first shot that was the difference.  If I haven't oiled the bore, all the shots go where the first went.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Johrichal said:

I took a look at it this morning and there is an adjustment on it. I just never saw it before because it is an extremely small hex head screw

You really don't need to adjust the laser. All you have to do is make sure that you put the laser on the same POA for each round and let the bullets group where they want. Small group, accurate ammo. Large group, crappy ammo. As long as the laser is secure internally and on the rails, you should be good to go. (unless, of course, you want to use the laser for other shooting)

 

Edited by ChuckS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

You really don't need to adjust the laser. All you have to do is make sure that you put the laser on the same POA for each round and let the bullets group where they want. Small group, accurate ammo. Large group, crappy ammo. As long as the laser is secure internally and on the rails, you should be good to go. (unless, of course, you want to use the laser for other shooting)

 

Yeah you right ,I got a good friend that uses a laser just for load work ups and I've borrowed it a couple times for the same thing we usually shoot it at twenty five yards not worried about adjusting it as long as it's on the paper is all that matters for load work ups. Works very good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ChuckS said:

You really don't need to adjust the laser. All you have to do is make sure that you put the laser on the same POA for each round and let the bullets group where they want. Small group, accurate ammo. Large group, crappy ammo. As long as the laser is secure internally and on the rails, you should be good to go. (unless, of course, you want to use the laser for other shooting)

 

That's right. The likelihood of the poa changing during a shooting session is low. Really low. You only have to check it once in awhile to be sure the zero is good for personal defense, games, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Johrichal said:

I took a look at it this morning and there is an adjustment on it. I just never saw it before because it is an extremely small hex head screw

 

Line the laser up with POA from your sights! I didn't want to rule out that they are not adjustable without you stating one way or the other. If you set them to co-witness at 15 yards or 50' you'll be a tad low at 7 yards and a tad high at 25 yards. I would not worry about that at all. Solve all of your problems at a given distance. Just want you know what the effect will be a closer and longer range. Moot until your initial questions are answered!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, zzt said:

  the difference  the way the round fed into the gun on the first shot that was the difference.  If I haven't oiled the bore, all the shots go where the first went.

 

I believe it was Massad Ayoob who first started this whole business of "first shot and the way the round feeds" business about 25 years ago.

 

I've never specifically tested for it, but think I've casually observed it a few times.

 

So, just to be sure, I fire the first shot into the berm, and try not to run the gun dry - keep last round in chamber and insert new mag.

 

Usually when I fire my first shot, it's because I've cleaned the gun first -

 

Guess my next range visit, I'll test for "the first round theory".    :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now