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PCC in USPSA


Broncman

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I shot PCC last Sunday, and trust me, it ain't as easy as you'd think. You do have to aim, it's definitely not a magic wand sending you to GM land. Minor scoring slows you down to get A's like in production. Reloading a PCC, even with an add-on mag well, is slower than a pistol. The biggest advantage over pistol is the unlimited mag capacity. But I and another PCC guy had jams with our 42 & 50 round mags. I now think head to head, open guns will win usually over PCC, given similar ability of the shooters. Because of major scoring.

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Has this actually happened? I have never seen a safe area delineated by fault lines, one is either in front of the safe table or not.


Single stack and revolver nationals.. they are clearly marked with fault lines.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/11/2017 at 1:21 PM, RippinSVT said:

 

No, and my rationale is this...if I can't catch the Open guy, he outshot me either way, but I have the ability/possibility to improve and beat him, there is nothing fundamentally handicapping me aside from sights, which can be shot as fast by an accomplished shooter.  Surrender/hands-at-side draws, shooting weakhand, whatever the COF calls for.  Anyways, specifically in Steel Challenge (not normal USPSA, as I've clarified like 3 times), they start with the gun pointed generally at the target and I'm starting holstered at surrender.  There is little I can do to catch them with that much of a handicap, even if I shot like Max Michel.  Whether I'm shooting a SS or Open gun or whatever I still have to do the same as the other shooters...except PCC.  You guys act so shocked...but there are a metric shit-ton of veteran shooters who think it's getting out in the weeds a bit...not to mention affecting stage design and/or COF, slowing the matches down, etc.  It's just too far apart in my eyes, and I'm entitled to that opinion.

 

It isn't just PCC. None of the rimfire divisions require a draw either. None of them start pointed at the first target though. 

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On 4/19/2017 at 2:36 PM, OPENB said:

I shot PCC last Sunday, and trust me, it ain't as easy as you'd think. You do have to aim, it's definitely not a magic wand sending you to GM land. Minor scoring slows you down to get A's like in production. Reloading a PCC, even with an add-on mag well, is slower than a pistol. The biggest advantage over pistol is the unlimited mag capacity. But I and another PCC guy had jams with our 42 & 50 round mags. I now think head to head, open guns will win usually over PCC, given similar ability of the shooters. Because of major scoring.

Yea no. Here we are beating open guys regularly who are higher class shooters. 

Pat

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I shoot both open and PCC. Here is my take. I think it depends on the COF. If it is set up with tight left and right walls where you have to bend around them open wins along with classifier type reload stages.

 

Longer more open accuracy dependent shots, PCC wins.

 

Just shot a "hybrid" match where it was set up with PCC in mind with longer open shots, not a lot of walls, more movement. head & shoulder shots, no shoots, and small steels. PCC took the top 4 spots out of 60 shooters and about 7 or 8 of the top 10. Now we are all pretty experienced PCC shooters. Not sure of classifications, but a master & some A's.

 

gerritm

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48 minutes ago, gerritm said:

I shoot both open and PCC. Here is my take. I think it depends on the COF. If it is set up with tight left and right walls where you have to bend around them open wins along with classifier type reload stages.

 

Longer more open accuracy dependent shots, PCC wins.

 

Just shot a "hybrid" match where it was set up with PCC in mind with longer open shots, not a lot of walls, more movement. head & shoulder shots, no shoots, and small steels. PCC took the top 4 spots out of 60 shooters and about 7 or 8 of the top 10. Now we are all pretty experienced PCC shooters. Not sure of classifications, but a master & some A's.

 

gerritm

I think what youre describing is a problem not really mentioned. (or at least I didnt catch it by skimming through this) Matches will change to accommodate PCC. Setting up a match with PCC in mind changes the sport for everyone shooting a pistol. Which = Rifles dont belong in a pistol match.

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39 minutes ago, Shmella said:

I think what youre describing is a problem not really mentioned. (or at least I didnt catch it by skimming through this) Matches will change to accommodate PCC. Setting up a match with PCC in mind changes the sport for everyone shooting a pistol. Which = Rifles dont belong in a pistol match.

 

That is why this was called a hybrid match as it departed from their normal USPSA match. Still had 45 or so pistol shooters. We have several clubs that are embracing PCC as a way for new and experienced shooters to have fun with their new toys. One even has a rifle at the match that you can shoot to see how you like it. Everyone who has started shooting PCC says the same thing. It is fun. Doesn't mean they are going to give up their pistols, just a break from really the same thing.  Sometimes change is good for a sport.

 

gerritm

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6 hours ago, Alaskapopo said:

Yea no. Here we are beating open guys regularly who are higher class shooters. 

Pat

 

Optics Nationals pretty conclusively showed that in straight-up competitions on high-level USPSA stages between competitors of equally high skill, Open will beat PCC.   Solidly.

 

This doesn't mean that some individual stages might favor one division over another.   (That's a separate thing.)

 

My personal opinion is that at local matches and such  a good B-class PCC shooter (coming from an iron sights division) will often rank much higher in the overall than they would normally.    However, a B-class Open shooter shifting to PCC probably won't find a whole lot of change in the overall results.  IMO.

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2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Optics Nationals pretty conclusively showed that in straight-up competitions on high-level USPSA stages between competitors of equally high skill, Open will beat PCC.   Solidly.

 

This doesn't mean that some individual stages might favor one division over another.   (That's a separate thing.)

 

My personal opinion is that at local matches and such  a good B-class PCC shooter (coming from an iron sights division) will often rank much higher in the overall than they would normally.    However, a B-class Open shooter shifting to PCC probably won't find a whole lot of change in the overall results.  IMO.

Not what we are seeing here.  One match does not a trend make. Also I am a B open shooter and I am finishing better with the PCC.

 

 

Edited by Alaskapopo
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9 minutes ago, Alaskapopo said:

Not what we are seeing here.  One match does not a trend make. Also I am a B open shooter and I am finishing better with the PCC.

 

 

From what I have seen, the past 4 major matches with PCC and Open, Open beats PCC by an avg of 10%. Area 1, Area 2, Optics Nats, SC State Championship.  I think that's the beginning of a trend. 

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Maybe it is stage design.... Asheville does not have a PCC match. Oak Ridge TN does. Looking back through the last 4-5 matches, PCC has dominated with up to 5 of the top 10 spots overall. No other division is posting that success at ORSA.

 

Guess I will join the crowd Saturday and see how I shake out. 

 

Although, the match layout for this weekend does not include the new wide open bays, so we will see.

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26 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Maybe it is stage design.... Asheville does not have a PCC match. Oak Ridge TN does. Looking back through the last 4-5 matches, PCC has dominated with up to 5 of the top 10 spots overall. No other division is posting that success at ORSA.

 

Guess I will join the crowd Saturday and see how I shake out. 

 

Although, the match layout for this weekend does not include the new wide open bays, so we will see.

That may be it. Some are but hurt over PCC and are trying to design stages to maximize any disadvantage. However in a well rounded match PCC comes out on top. 

 

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52 minutes ago, Alaskapopo said:

Not what we are seeing here.  One match does not a trend make. Also I am a B open shooter and I am finishing better with the PCC.

 

 

Sounds like you guys are building rifle stages at your pistol matches. 

 

Actual pistol stages (like nationals and area matches) show a different result than your local anecdote.

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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Sounds like you guys are building rifle stages at your pistol matches. 

 

Actual pistol stages (like nationals and area matches) show a different result than your local anecdote.

Hardly and its at more than one club. A well rounded pistol match should have at least some longer range targets. That said the range I shoot at the most is indoors with most shots being 7 to 10 yards.  Rifle stages are out to 500 yards. Also Broncman has seen the same thing apparently. 

 

 

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whatever. i put more stock in major matches than locals. I also pretty much ignore pcc in the 'overall' when they are there. Hopefully practiscore will come up with a feature to just deselect individual divisions in the results. would be nice to look at just ss and prod for example, or all iron-sight guns, or all pistols.

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17 hours ago, Alaskapopo said:

Not what we are seeing here.  One match does not a trend make. Also I am a B open shooter and I am finishing better with the PCC.

 

 

 

Ok.

 

But...it is the one match that had many stages of all types where Open, Carry Optics, and PCC went head-to-head with effectively the best shooters in the the nation in those divisions shooting those divisions.

 

Of course one match doesn't make a trend. However, in that match, the results were obvious.  And as Patrick Scott pointed out, it is about the same thing we are seeing at all large major matches.  (Area 1, Area 2, Optics Nats, SC State Championship.)

 

At local matches (with normally significantly fewer stages), stage that favor one division over another will have a disproportionate effect on the overall match score.  Which is favored and how it goes (and the number of stages) will skew the real answer.

 

Which is why looking at major matches (and in particular, major matches in which the best in the nation are competing head-to-head over a large number of stages of differing types) tends to be a more realistic approximation of the answer than a small match with a small number of competitors who have differing levels of skill and experience in their division.
 

From what I've seen locally, it matches what I said:  iron-sights shooters moving to PCC have raised their finish in the rankings fairly significantly (red dot optic, effectively no reloads, rifle stability), people who were already shooting Open guns didn't really change that much if they were high in the rankings (compared to others).

 

YMMV.  But nationally, it seems to be pretty similar across major matches.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/19/2017 at 3:58 PM, Schutzenmeister said:

 

A long, long time ago in a place far, far away ...

 

Sorry!

 

Originally, there were no Divisions.  EVERYONE competed head-to-head.  Then sometime (late '80s, early '90s - I'm not certain) some bright shooter go the idea to mount a red dot sight on top of his (already compensated) gun.  He did so well that others followed.  It soon became obvious it wasn't fair to compete the (now) Open and Limited guns head-to-head and Divisions were created.  At first, they were scored together then the results pulled apart for match purposes.  But, there was a flaw in the process.  Scoring them this way could (and did, occasionally) lead to shooter's places flipping from the "combined" scoring to the "divided" scoring.  Hence, it became obvious a choice had to be made on which method to use.

 

Somewhere in the mid '90s (I don't remember exactly when), the rules changed to requiring official results be posted based on all scoring done within Divisions and not across Divisions.  Without getting into the "International" nomenclatures, there was Open and Limited.  Eventually Revolver was added (as it wasn't originally its own Division,) then L10 (courtesy of the 1994 Crime Bill.)  The sport soon wanted a "Production Division," and diehards wanted to bring back their old 1911 .45's - Single Stack was born.

 

Recently we've added Carry Optics and Pistol Caliber Carbine ... and NONE of that includes any breakouts for rifles and shotguns!

 

Enough Divisions ... yet?

 

One thing is clear ... As I can remember all of that, perhaps I'm getting too old for this!  ;-)>

Pretty sure that someone was was Jerry Barnhart.

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10 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Ahhh ... Someone else old enough to remember!  ?

My first open gun was a comp'd (no scope) 10mm single stack, because at that point we weren't sure 38 super was going to pan out. That 10mm quickly became a 38 super, eventually got a PDP 2. It still sits in my safe.

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3 hours ago, redfisher said:

My first open gun was a comp'd (no scope) 10mm single stack, because at that point we weren't sure 38 super was going to pan out. That 10mm quickly became a 38 super, eventually got a PDP 2. It still sits in my safe.

 

I hear ya.  Mine was a Springfield 1911 in .45 ACP w/ a PDP.

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On 4/26/2017 at 4:42 PM, dcloudy777 said:

I wonder if the latest "okay to shoulder arm brace" BATFE letter might eventually translate into letting the arm brace "pistols" into PCC?

It is on the June 13 agenda for the USPSA BOD.

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"From what I've seen locally, it matches what I said:  iron-sights shooters moving to PCC have raised their finish in the rankings fairly significantly (red dot optic, effectively no reloads, rifle stability), people who were already shooting Open guns didn't really change that much if they were high in the rankings (compared to others). "

 

Above absolutely true. I've spent ~20+yrs shooting limited (started before limited hi caps existed) and it's no contest: a red dot carbine (that runs) with a good trigger is way faster and more accurate (and freckin fun too). Nice change to the sport! Will give us equipment junkies something to do for a few years too. 

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