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PCC in USPSA


Broncman

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1 minute ago, Patrick Scott said:

 So when you shoot Irons and loose to Open guys do you feel the same as when you shoot Open and loose to PCC guys? Or is it different?  What if there was a cash prize and you had to shoot irons for some reason(your open blaster is broke for example), of course you want that HOA but are you really going to complain when an Open guy takes it?

 

 

No, and my rationale is this...if I can't catch the Open guy, he outshot me either way, but I have the ability/possibility to improve and beat him, there is nothing fundamentally handicapping me aside from sights, which can be shot as fast by an accomplished shooter.  Surrender/hands-at-side draws, shooting weakhand, whatever the COF calls for.  Anyways, specifically in Steel Challenge (not normal USPSA, as I've clarified like 3 times), they start with the gun pointed generally at the target and I'm starting holstered at surrender.  There is little I can do to catch them with that much of a handicap, even if I shot like Max Michel.  Whether I'm shooting a SS or Open gun or whatever I still have to do the same as the other shooters...except PCC.  You guys act so shocked...but there are a metric shit-ton of veteran shooters who think it's getting out in the weeds a bit...not to mention affecting stage design and/or COF, slowing the matches down, etc.  It's just too far apart in my eyes, and I'm entitled to that opinion.

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1 minute ago, RippinSVT said:

 

No, and my rationale is this...if I can't catch the Open guy, he outshot me either way, but I have the ability/possibility to improve and beat him, there is nothing fundamentally handicapping me aside from sights, which can be shot as fast by an accomplished shooter.  Surrender/hands-at-side draws, shooting weakhand, whatever the COF calls for.  Anyways, specifically in Steel Challenge (not normal USPSA, as I've clarified like 3 times), they start with the gun pointed generally at the target and I'm starting holstered at surrender.  There is little I can do to catch them with that much of a handicap, even if I shot like Max Michel.  Whether I'm shooting a SS or Open gun or whatever I still have to do the same as the other shooters...except PCC.  You guys act so shocked...but there are a metric shit-ton of veteran shooters who think it's getting out in the weeds a bit...not to mention affecting stage design and/or COF, slowing the matches down, etc.  It's just too far apart in my eyes, and I'm entitled to that opinion.

I have tried to keep my comments limited to SC, hence my deleted one. I do agree that PCC makes way more of difference in SC that normal USPSA matches. Right now as it sits, after the last 4 USPSA Majors with PCC in the mix Open still trumps all by about 10%.  It sounds to me like you should be voicing your concerns to the organizers of SC instead of here in effort to change things for the better. If you haven't already anyways.  

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13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i personally ignore classes, since they only exist to give out self-esteem awards. I also ignore the 'lower' divisions, but pay attention to the equivalent and higher ones. As an SS shooter, I want to beat everyone I can in every division, but when I shoot limited, I don't care at all about beating ss or prod shooters. That would be pretty wacked. That'd be like saying 'woot woot, I beat the high lady junior, I'm super badazz!'.

 

Do you realize you just completely agreed with me? I could care less about class and lower divisions.

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34 minutes ago, RippinSVT said:

 

Do you realize you just completely agreed with me? I could care less about class and lower divisions.

But you care about pcc, apparently, lol, and are sad that you can't be ahead of them on unofficial combined results. If I were you, I would get a 22 open gun for steel like the little kids shoot, and then you can start at low-ready too.

 

fwiw, I'm just yanking your chain, but you are kinda dressed like you want it. ;)

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Just now, motosapiens said:

But you care about pcc, apparently, lol, and are sad that you can't be ahead of them on unofficial combined results. If I were you, I would get a 22 open gun for steel like the little kids shoot, and then you can start at low-ready too.

 

fwiw, I'm just yanking your chain, but you are kinda dressed like you want it. ;)

 

That's it, I'm bringing the Marvel  .22 conversion out.  Gonna take the local scene by storm.

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At the local level Steel matches around me are ruled by 22's either pistols or carbines with optics, they normally outnumber center fire guns by a large margin, so I guess if you are really interested in HOA then you need to get a 22 rifle. 

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This thread went way off the rails from the last time I read it!

If you want to win HOA at a steel match, get a ultralite 10/22 with a fancy trigger.

If you are seriously this butt hurt over not being able to catch the PCC shooters, at the end of the match just add .3 seconds to every run in the match, then you can compare it apples to apples. Because if your draw isn't at .9-1.1 for every single run of the entire match then you have zero room to be upset in any regard.

Additionally, you mention "nothing fundamentally handicapping me aside from sights, which can be shot as fast by an accomplished shooter," which by the way, is demonstrably false. You getting beat by an open shooter when you are shooting irons is EXACTLY the same as getting beat by a PCC shooter when you have your open gun.

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I think the issue is more rifle B's pistol than open race gun vs iron sights etc.

USPSA has been a pistol sport for years and now they let rifles in...

 

Some match directors will not include PCC...

 

I do have a PCC but sticking with my pistol for USPSA . I might later pick up an extra match a month or two to play with the PCC, but my focus is on reaching A class or better with my pistol.

 

My last 2 classifiers were barely in the B class range, so I got a ways to go and that is the fun for me. The personal commitment to reach the goals I set.

 

Placing higher up over all just strokes the ego. 

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No butthurt here when it comes to winning HOA. Do I want to? Yes, but who cares. If there's money on the line for HOA and a pistol match gets won by a rifle, I do roll my eyes. My issue stems from the fact that we often keep rimfire as separate match entirely. In some sports, only a junior can win HOA with a rimfire, everyone else shooting rimfire can ONLY win in their division. SC is a time match, with the assumption everyone shoots all 5 plates...I'll stand by my statement that it's more than simply an equipment advantage to start pointed at the target. An example is a "wall of steel" match being shot near me later this year. It's a "run what ya brung" top-down match with normal PF requirements, essentially discounting rimfires. PCC will dominate it due to the extra time advantage. I could shoot PCC and perhaps win...but I want to shoot a pistol.

 

But don't take my word for it, the Steel Pro-Am  for 2017 has already completely secluded PCC as an entirely separate match.  

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No butthurt here when it comes to winning HOA. Do I want to? Yes, but who cares. If there's money on the line for HOA and a pistol match gets won by a rifle, I do roll my eyes. My issue stems from the fact that we often keep rimfire as separate match entirely. In some sports, only a junior can win HOA with a rimfire, everyone else shooting rimfire can ONLY win in their division. SC is a time match, with the assumption everyone shoots all 5 plates...I'll stand by my statement that it's more than simply an equipment advantage to start pointed at the target. An example is a "wall of steel" match being shot near me later this year. It's a "run what ya brung" top-down match with normal PF requirements, essentially discounting rimfires. PCC will dominate it due to the extra time advantage. I could shoot PCC and perhaps win...but I want to shoot a pistol.
 
But don't take my word for it, the Steel Pro-Am  for 2017 has already completely secluded PCC as an entirely separate match.  

If it is a run what you brung match, and that is published in the rules ahead of time, then you should just work to maximize your equipment advantage. I think that not having equipment divisions when it comes to awards and placement is silly (at least have limited, open, and rifle, but I digress) but if everyone has the same ruleset ahead of time then yet again, you have no room to complain.

What is your average draw on all 8 of the stages?
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17 hours ago, RippinSVT said:

If there's money on the line for HOA

I think this is one of the main problems. 

 

I don't shoot USPSA, but a good amount of IPSC in Europe. Couldn't understand why people would be so upset about PCC here on Benos (other than maybe keeping the spirit of a handgun sport). Until I learned about the HOA concept in the US. 

How can HOA be anything other than information or a fun fact? Shooting (for example) Classic vs. Open for money? 

But no offense, think PCC in pistol matches is an extremely interesting discussion.

Edited by TangoShooter
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They should just make PCC shooters pick their rifles up off the ground at the beginning of the stage.  The extra 3-120 seconds to bend over that far will keep the rifles from being a cheesy way to win overall time.

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On 4/11/2017 at 2:55 PM, RippinSVT said:

Traditional USPSA aside, they have an astronomical advantage in Steel...What if there's money/prizes on the line for HOA?  Then yes, I think it's silly that you can bring a rifle to a pistol match.  Maybe add an automatic .5 seconds to PCC?  I dunno.

 

Many steel challenge matches that do order of finish prize tables either have a separate prize table for PCC, or the PCC dude simply doesn't walk the prize table for their PCC finish. At the Florida State Steel Challenge I had to shoot a pistol division to walk the prize table. At the Steel Nationals and the SE Pro Am there was a separate prize table for PCC.

 

Heck this year was the first time there was a rimfire prize table at the Steel Nationals. They sometimes had prizes that were only for people who shot rimfire, but they only had a chance at it when they walked based on their centerfire order of finish.

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Besides which, if you are talking about Steel Challenge the order of finish prize table they use has a huge inequity due to it being open vs irons. The same shooter will be 5-10% faster with an open gun than with iron sights. You can see it in the results with Max, Dave, and others shooting limited/production vs their open times.

 

So as a long time iron sight only shooter cry me a freaking river. This was my first year shooting open, it was nice to get up there before all the nice prizes were gone.

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2 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said:

People keep mentioning HOA and winning money.  Exactly how many majors has PCC been HOA?  

i don't think i've ever been to a match that offered anything to HOA. is that really a thing? if it is, it's retarded.

Edited by motosapiens
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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

i don't think i've ever been to a match that offered anything to HOA. is that really a thing? if it is, it's retarded.

 

 

Not that I am aware of either.  That is why I asked the question.  It's all silly.  I don't even think PCC has been HOA in a real match.  

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This thread is about USPSA. What USPSA matches give prizes for HOA? In USPSA combined results aren't official and only for informational purposes, so giving awards based off combined results in USPSA makes no sense. Even without PCC it makes no sense doing awards off combined results.

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Yea the thread started out about USPSA, but devolved into steel challenge giving awards out by HOA/overall order of finish. Which to me is silly, but if that is the rules and everyone knows them, shoot a rifle. Simple as that.

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4 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

Yea the thread started out about USPSA, but devolved into steel challenge giving awards out by HOA/overall order of finish. Which to me is silly, but if that is the rules and everyone knows them, shoot a rifle. Simple as that.
 

 

Yeah, open guns are going to get waxed by rimfire (pistol and rifle) too. So sad. We do a big steel match or so every year. We give out prizes by division. I've never even heard anyone talk about HOA.

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On 4/12/2017 at 7:57 AM, RippinSVT said:

No butthurt here when it comes to winning HOA. Do I want to? Yes, but who cares. If there's money on the line for HOA and a pistol match gets won by a rifle, I do roll my eyes. My issue stems from the fact that we often keep rimfire as separate match entirely.

 

You do realize that Steel Challenge matches separate out PCC as a separate match too, right?  No?

Okay.

 

SC matches separate out PCC as a separate match in the results, just like Rimfire Rifle and Rimfire Pistol are separated out as separate matches.

 

So, your argument that PCC beats you and there's money on the line....either means someone's local club is doing something weird, or someone is making up random situations that don't exist in reality.  It certainly isn't happening in major SC matches.

 

In USPSA, don't believe anyone has managed to come up with any examples of HOA being worth money (as compared to divisions wins).  So again....no idea what the issue is about PCC beating those poor Open guys.  (Which, I'll note, normally DOESN'T happen in USPSA matches, as Open has shown to consistently be slightly higher than PCC in majors so far.)  Maybe Open shooters who are losing to PCC shooters in USPSA should practice more?

 

It really seems like the problem is that particular individuals don't get to brag about being king of the heap in their locals, even though that was really about shooting Open versus a lot of guys that don't shoot open.  Or guns with dots.   So....yeah.  Not real convincing in terms of anything.

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On 3/19/2017 at 5:54 AM, Broncman said:

?? I thought it was some kind of 3 gun class...

Hmmm, does not seem to fit at a USPSA match. Apples to oranges and rifles to pistols!

 

I got away from rifles to shoot pistols, now we got to go head to head with those guys?

 

I realize that my 2 cents for not buy anything these days, just not following the logic on that class in USPSA.

You not going head to head with anyone but those in your division. Such a simple concept but so hard for some to understand.

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Wow! Haters have spoken!
Isn't it US Practical Shooting Association?
Cannot rifles be practical?
I have always felt that competition, besides being great just because it's competition, is a way for people to become better, safer, shooters.
And I do not think rifles and pistols should be forced to compete against each other, and I don't see a problem adding one more classification to the match. Sure it's a little more for the scorers to take into consideration, but not if using Practiscore etc
Just don't understand why we're not feeling the love guys! We all just want to shoot!
(Yes, im a 3gun competitor. Start throwing down the hate now if you want to! Lol).


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15 hours ago, Scooter567 said:

Just don't understand why we're not feeling the love guys! We all just want to shoot!
(Yes, im a 3gun competitor. Start throwing down the hate now if you want to! Lol).

 

But uspsa pistol shooters want to practice, and aim..... ;)

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