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PCC in USPSA


Broncman

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16 hours ago, RJH said:

In that they are remotely equal on a course of fire?  According to overall results open guns and PCCs are much closer to being equal than open guns and revolvers.  I think the problem lies with  the perception that all the other divisions are equal because they are handguns, when they are not even close.   No SS, revolver, production, etc. shooters that I know of do all this crying over the fact that open shooters wipe the floor with them at every match in the overalls, so I can only assume that all the crying is coming from open shooters because the might not be on the top of basically every match from now on.  I shoot SS and production mainly, and it matters little to me who is at the top of the overalls, they are just for fun anyway (well maybe less fun for open shooters nowadays) :-)

 

 

I have yet to be anywhere near the top in any match shooting Open.

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No SS, revolver, production, etc. shooters that I know of do all this crying over the fact that open shooters wipe the floor with them at every match in the overalls, so I can only assume that all the crying is coming from open shooters because the might not be on the top of basically every match from now on.
 
 


Not sure where you're shooting but Open isn't necessarily king and DEFINITELY isn't "wiping the floor with" Lim, Prod, or SS shooters in our area. It certainly isn't only Open shooters that are against PCC either.

I find it interesting that there isn't more pushback against the eased safety rules that the red-headed stepdivision gets. Also, many of my friends and I are concerned that a shooter that wants to place higher will abandon the work it takes to improve at the more difficult pistol discipline and go straight to the PCC, no reload, easy accuracy solution.

If they go to PCC to get a better understanding of the game then pick up the pistol and put in the work then competition benefits. If they pick up the PCC and decide it's so much easier than putting in practice and improving then pistol competition may suffer.

Time will tell I guess.


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14 minutes ago, seadog_99 said:

 


Not sure where you're shooting but Open isn't necessarily king and DEFINITELY isn't "wiping the floor with" Lim, Prod, or SS shooters in our area. It certainly isn't only Open shooters that are against PCC either.

I find it interesting that there isn't more pushback against the eased safety rules that the red-headed stepdivision gets. Also, many of my friends and I are concerned that a shooter that wants to place higher will abandon the work it takes to improve at the more difficult pistol discipline and go straight to the PCC, no reload, easy accuracy solution.

If they go to PCC to get a better understanding of the game then pick up the pistol and put in the work then competition benefits. If they pick up the PCC and decide it's so much easier than putting in practice and improving then pistol competition may suffer.

Time will tell I guess.


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How is anyone or thing "suffering" in any way shape or form? Don't like PCC, just pretend we aren't there having fun. It's like an IDPA & USPSA match going on at the same time, the IDPA guys are all saying, "someone is having fun & I don't like it." 

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Well I have been observing the PCC thing for a while now and my observations have been.

1- looks fun and the ones shooting it are excited about it.

2- I don't care what anyone says but the average PCC shooter takes about twice as long to make ready and show clear as a pistol shooter.( with exception to the rare pistol shooter that does a long zen like ritual)

3-I have been to 2 different matches walking the stages before the match and the setup crew was fine tuning the stages. They were making adjustments while ghosting with a rifle. So those who say that the stages won't change with the rifles I'm a little skeptical after seeing this.

4- Still lots of confusion as to what to do before and after with the gun. Seems every club is different. Some bring gun to line bagged and some carry it to the line unbagged.

5- Some clubs start shooters from low ready and some with butt of gun on belt except on the classifier which has it spelled out in the WSB.

6- RO's need to really watch the timer at the end of a course of fire as I have had to hold the timer over the shooters shoulder or above their head to pick up the last shots. Really need to watch and make sure the timer is picking up the last shots.

7- I think the classifiers are a problem as I have seen some B class shooters score GM runs with a PCC. Which means if they keep it up they may be a master with their other guns whether they want to or not.

 

Looks like it would be fun to shoot but I'm still doing the Revolver thing but maybe someday.

As for the overall results thing as a Revo shooter they are very important to me as there are not many of us at most matches and I know where I should fall in against the auto shooters. While I'm aware that the overalls  don't count they are still fun to look at.

They are more important to some people than they let on. While RO'ing in the last month I have had 2 very good open shooters burn down a field course and after ULSC they turned and said lets see the PCC guys beat that. :D

 

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How is anyone or thing "suffering" in any way shape or form? Don't like PCC, just pretend we aren't there having fun. It's like an IDPA & USPSA match going on at the same time, the IDPA guys are all saying, "someone is having fun & I don't like it." 


Did you read my post?


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Sure did & it makes no sense to me. What someone else does & why they do it is of no business to me or you. If I have the money, & I can step right into a top fuel dragster & race, how does that effect the guy in the funny car or stock divisions? Should they grumble that he just bought his way up without putting in the time? It's none of their business!

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Hmmmmm...... Fast track to GM! Woohoo!

 

Joking aside, do they make the PCC shooters use empty chamber indicators from safe area etc? 

In the NRA high-power game, chamber indicators must be in rifle at all times untill the "make ready"...

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24 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Hmmmmm...... Fast track to GM! Woohoo!

 

Joking aside, do they make the PCC shooters use empty chamber indicators from safe area etc? 

In the NRA high-power game, chamber indicators must be in rifle at all times untill the "make ready"...

 

You can answer a bunch of your questions by reading through the PCC ruleset/Addendum to the rulebook...

 

To answer your question, chamber flags are strongly encouraged, but, as I read it, it would appear that bolt locked open, magazine removed, and muzzle pointed up or down is also acceptable at certain times.

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1 hour ago, OPENB said:

Sure did & it makes no sense to me. What someone else does & why they do it is of no business to me or you. If I have the money, & I can step right into a top fuel dragster & race, how does that effect the guy in the funny car or stock divisions? Should they grumble that he just bought his way up without putting in the time? It's none of their business!

You clearly missed the entire meaning of the post then. It isn't about the fun or the buying into it. If people just drop out of the pistol divisions because they are harder and start shooting PCC with no intention of honing new skills and applying them to other divisions, then the level of competition may fall. 

 

Do I agree with that? No. But that was the point of the post that you completely missed. 

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1 minute ago, Gooldylocks said:

You clearly missed the entire meaning of the post then. It isn't about the fun or the buying into it. If people just drop out of the pistol divisions because they are harder and start shooting PCC with no intention of honing new skills and applying them to other divisions, then the level of competition may fall. 

 

And to some extent, this is actually happening. I am looking forward to when PCC gets big enough to have its own match, and people won't have to choose between rifles or handguns. At that point, I would consider learning a bit about rifle too, even if it was only staying after the pistol match to shoot half of the stages as a small rifle match.

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

And to some extent, this is actually happening. I am looking forward to when PCC gets big enough to have its own match, and people won't have to choose between rifles or handguns. At that point, I would consider learning a bit about rifle too, even if it was only staying after the pistol match to shoot half of the stages as a small rifle match.

I absolutely agree it is happening to some extent. I don't think that it is happening at a level yet that it becomes a significant issue in lowering the level of competition. I hope it stays that way. 

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I do think the safety stuff can all be addressed, but their needs to be a standard and everyone needs to be brought up to speed on it. I shot a match a few weeks ago, and I got to hold the timer a few times. I'm not a RO but our squad was short handed and I've been around long enough to know the basics. Thinking back after reading this thread I sent one new shooter home for starting to make ready before I issued the command. Yet the PCC shooters can walk to the line with their gun in the hand. There was certainly a little bit of confusion as to how to handle them, both on my part and some of the shooters themselves. We got through it easily and safely though, not really a big deal.

 

And a question, can someone just not like the idea? Everyone is quick to tell the pistol shooter who doesn't like PCC why they're wrong. And quick to try to stomp out their reasons for not liking it. But can a member just not like it? Is what they like or dislike any less important then what you like? Do they pay the same dues you do? This is new, and not necessarily the direction some wanted to see the sport going.

 

I think this division will gain a lot of popularity, it looks pretty easy honestly. Sure you have to beat other PCC guys, and it's all separate matches and all that crap. I bet none of the PCC shooters will brag about how they did overall either. lol. Watching relativity new shooters run a PCC, they can pretty easily aim at a partial target that would give a pistol shoot trouble and drill two A's as fast as they can pull the trigger, something they wouldn't be able to do with a pistol. It can certainly change things, and will lead to changes in how we build stages. At this point it's to late, and we will all just have to adapt to it and move on.

 

 

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I carry my PCC to the line muzzle down in a Rugged Gear cart.  I wait until everyone is uprange before I remove it from the cart.  I have all my crap together so that once on the line, I'm not fumbling around looking for magazine or ear protection.

 

On "make ready", I remove the chamber flag, place it in my back pocket and load.  I assume the position.  I keep the RO informed and I take less time than some of the pistol shooters.

 

At the end of the stage, I've pocketed the magazine, ejected the live round and presented the chamber to the RO for inspection.  On command, I drop the hammer then rack it back to insert the chamber flag.  Unless commanded otherwise, I keep it muzzle up until I can safely return it to the cart.  Again, it took less time than some of the pistol shooters.

 

The first time or two, the RO may need a little coaching but I've yet to have an RO complain about me taking too long or complain about my safety.  PCC is new to a lot of folks but its gaining competitors in almost every match.

 

All the arguments against PCC just don't hold water.  Many of the arguments in the past have been used against revolver shooters, production shooters and even open shooters. If anything the CO folks should be thanking the PCC folks.  Everyone now has someone else to hate.

 

PCC is here to stay.  Learn to live with it or get in a different squad. 

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10 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

Yeah.  It is soooo easy after many months of PCC there are only 8 GM in the country.  Those  GM score are still hard to come by.  

 

https://www.uspsa.org/top20.php

 

maybe most GM's actually enjoy practicing, so there would be no benefit to shooting rifles at pistol matches for them. ;)

 

what's amusing is how easy it is to wind up the rifle guys, like they feel guilty or something. I've been making fun of open (welfare open and real open) shooters and revolver shooters for years, other folks have been busting on singlestackers, and no one really cares, but make a couple jokes about people taking up rifle because they are lazy to get good at shooting a pistol, and all of the sudden it's like a democrat party sit-in, where people try to outdo themselves with hurt feelings and offense. It's like they want to use the wrong bathroom or something.

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42 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

maybe most GM's actually enjoy practicing, so there would be no benefit to shooting rifles at pistol matches for them. ;)

 

what's amusing is how easy it is to wind up the rifle guys, like they feel guilty or something. I've been making fun of open (welfare open and real open) shooters and revolver shooters for years, other folks have been busting on singlestackers, and no one really cares, but make a couple jokes about people taking up rifle because they are lazy to get good at shooting a pistol, and all of the sudden it's like a democrat party sit-in, where people try to outdo themselves with hurt feelings and offense. It's like they want to use the wrong bathroom or something.

 

I think PCC is fun in the off  season, just not something I would want to do at majors.  It is virtually impossible for me to switch back and forth from open to PCC so it will be a winter time thing I will play around with.  Pcc is fun but pistols are way more funner.  

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3 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said:

 

I think PCC is fun in the off  season, just not something I would want to do at majors.  It is virtually impossible for me to switch back and forth from open to PCC so it will be a winter time thing I will play around with.  Pcc is fun but pistols are way more funner.  

 

oh, so you're a hater?

 

;)

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On 3/19/2017 at 9:54 AM, Broncman said:

?? I thought it was some kind of 3 gun class...

Hmmm, does not seem to fit at a USPSA match. Apples to oranges and rifles to pistols!

 

I got away from rifles to shoot pistols, now we got to go head to head with those guys?

 

I realize that my 2 cents for not buy anything these days, just not following the logic on that class in USPSA.

It seems you are new to the sport, welcome!

Here is some info:

Different styles of firearms(across the most common disciplines) are shot separated by divisions, not classes. Class indicates how well you have scored on Classifier stages compared to others. Apples to oranges you say, well we already had that IMHO. a 6 shot non-comped, non-red dot revolver is pretty far away from an open gun(~30rds, mag fed, compensated, optic equipped). Yes they are both handguns, but there are vast differences in both capability, operation, and heck even differences in range commands. 

At non-multigun(combined shooting of rifle,shotgun, pistol), USPSA matches, pistols do not shoot "head-to-head" against rifles. All divisions are shooting their own little match. Yes, you can view overall results in some places, but those results are not official results. While it can be fun and useful/motivating to compare yourself in division A vs. a guy in division B, there is no real meaning there.  That would be like comparing a street car's time at the drag strip vs. top fuel car's time during a weekend of drag racing. 

 

I can't really speak to the logic that USPSA HQ used to bring this division to bear, but in my mind its(PCC gun) a firearm shooting the same ammo(as handguns) that brings its own unique challenges and strengths to a USPSA course of fire. It requires the learning of a different set of skills, but at the same time requires the learning of a similar set of core skills that it takes to be successful in USPSA. That is why the good pistol shooters often make good rifle shooters.

 

 

 

 

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Yeah Flatland!

We are getting more PCC shooters.  Our club is still experiencing growing pains.  The PCC are typically slower and the stage turnaround is longer.

Having shot RM3G and SSMM3G I believe in big boy rules.  Those matches are safe!

However, we do the chamber flag at our club.  As a RO and CRO I prefer chamber flag and muzzle up. 

I do not like the on deck PCC shooter going back to his car to get his equipment.  They need to be ready just like everyone else.  Twice I have bumped the on deck shooter since the PCC was dicking around.

 

Oh, If JP every gets its phone system and web working correctly, I'll be ordering a PCC.

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One match admin thing that helps with turnaround for PCC is a staging table near the start facing into the berm. Folks can keep their PCCs bagged but in a convenient location. Unbagging happens into the berm and is a little bit easier for folks without carts or with bad backs. 

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I think as time goes on, you will see more people move to the 3G style carts with rifle racks.  Guys around here are mounting scabbards on the DAA range carts that hold the guns muzzle down in a vertical fashion.  Seems to speed things up considerably

 

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