Broncman

PCC in USPSA

169 posts in this topic

?? I thought it was some kind of 3 gun class...

Hmmm, does not seem to fit at a USPSA match. Apples to oranges and rifles to pistols!

 

I got away from rifles to shoot pistols, now we got to go head to head with those guys?

 

I realize that my 2 cents for not buy anything these days, just not following the logic on that class in USPSA.

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I believe the intent may be to go the way of Steel Challenge and introduce enough divisions and disciplines to allow nearly every participant to tell their friends that don't know better that they "won their division". Even if that means shooting a rifle in a pistol game.


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Apparently PCCs are inherently safer than pistols too as they can un-bag at a berm, carry around their firearm, and not get a dq.

 

A pistol shooter has one foot touching outside of the safe area that they walked 200yds to get to while bagging/unbagging their pistol and they're subject to DQ.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

51 minutes ago, seadog_99 said:

...A pistol shooter has one foot touching outside of the safe area that they walked 200yds to get to while bagging/unbagging their pistol and they're subject to DQ.

 

 

Has this actually happened? I have never seen a safe area delineated by fault lines, one is either in front of the safe table or not.

Edited by tanks

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  Has this actually happened?

 

 

Yes, it has. The DQ anyway, the other particulars I can't speak about because I don't know exactly.

 

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Has this actually happened? I have never seen a safe area delineated by fault lines, one is either in front of the safe table or not.


From 2.4: "At level II or higher matches, Safety Areas must include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown."


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Posted (edited)

The pros and cons of the new PCC division have been discussed EXTENSIVELY in the past, and is worth the search as it will save a lot of butthurt. Since its introduction, PCC has proved to be wildly popular, and for many has rekindled their love for the sport. All of the safety drama that folks predicted has failed to come true. And to be clear, handgunners are NOT "going head-to-head" with the PCC shooters... like all our divisions, PCC is scored entirely separately.

Edited by StealthyBlagga

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Either they did not have the boundaries or I did not pay attention at the recent Area II match I was at. I know some of the safe tables were at raised concrete platforms so that could be a boundary I guess.

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52 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

The pros and cons of the new PCC division have been discussed EXTENSIVELY in the past, and is worth the search as it will save a lot of butthurt. Since its introduction, PCC has proved to be wildly popular, and for many has rekindled their love for the sport. All of the safety drama that folks predicted has failed to come true. And to be clear, handgunners are NOT "going head-to-head" with the PCC shooters... like all our divisions, PCC is scored entirely separately.

Maybe I do not understand the scoring yet, but when I look at overall on the match results, everyone is scored top down regardless of division for "overall".

 

Every one else gets a percentage of that top score. Say a PCC gets top score and a Open guy gets next. 

 

PCC won the match and his division. Open guy just won his division even though he was top pistol shooter.

 

Correct? Least that is how the scores from the last match read?

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17 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Correct? Least that is how the scores from the last match read?

 

No.  These are unofficial results.  The official results for a match MUST be broken down by Division with the top score in each Division for each stage determining the HHF for scoring purposes within that Division.

 

6.2.1, 9.2.5, 9.2.6

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Posted (edited)

Ok, understand now. Does Practiscore do that or does the hosting club usually post that somewhere?

Edited by Broncman

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Both PractiScore and EzWinScore will allow you to post "overall" scores with the Divisions mixed.  EzWinScore will clearly mark the combined scores as "Unofficial."  I've never really looked at the PractiScore results with that in mind.

 

It is VERY common for clubs at local matches to post mixed scores as folks frequently like to know how they did, head-to-head against their friends despite the fact they may have been shooting different Division.  If you go far enough back in the history of the sport, this was actually the rule and not the exception.  It changed to "by Division" something like 15-20 years ago.

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3 hours ago, tanks said:

 

Has this actually happened? I have never seen a safe area delineated by fault lines, one is either in front of the safe table or not.

Yes I have seen it twice with no leeway to the call. 

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The hilarious thing about people complaining about PCC winning the overalls, is that they never seem to act like open shooters have an advantage over production, single stack, revolver, or any other handgun divisions, cause they are all handguns, so they must be equal right?  It really seems that the only people to really get their panties in a bunch are the open shooters because they may not be HOA every time now.  FWIW I am never HOA, so none of it bothers me, come shoot and have fun.

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Posted (edited)

True to the above about the Open/PCC comapro. More ammo than every other division? Open had that. An optic. Open had that. Major scoring preferential. Open had that. Fewer limits on gun modifications. Open had that. Fewer restrictions on holsters and such. Open had that. In one way or another, for the past 10 years Open has had "more" or "better" in one way or multiple ways than all the other pistol divisions. So to not like PCC based on an equality to pistols argument seems silly, we're already unequal and have been for a long time. When it comes to the whole overall thing at a match.

 

What's gonna happen when a PCC wins overall at Optics Nats this weekend? Will the world stop?

 

And Stealthy is my hero for his cogent arguments and reasoning when it comes to the nuts and bolts of having a PCC in a match. Every issue people bring up he has a reply to that I thoroughly enjoy, understand, appreciate and can believe.

 

And yes, I have seen tons of Safety Areas with a delineated boundary.

Edited by rowdyb

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18 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

 

What's gonna happen when a PCC wins overall at Optics Nats this weekend? Will the world stop?

 

 

Nothing ... Because it won't happen.  The Divisions will be reported separately, as required by rule.  (This will be a Nationals, remember?)  Unless someone wants to do the mental math to "recombine" everything, that information will not, I predict, be available!

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It's easy to do, and i'll do it.

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practiscore shows overall and then you can select by division and even classification.

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4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

It is VERY common for clubs at local matches to post mixed scores as folks frequently like to know how they did, head-to-head against their friends despite the fact they may have been shooting different Division.  If you go far enough back in the history of the sport, this was actually the rule and not the exception.  It changed to "by Division" something like 15-20 years ago.

 

 

Aren't the divisions themselves from the mid-90s?

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Limited and Open are a little before that.

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35 minutes ago, PPGMD said:

Aren't the divisions themselves from the mid-90s?

 

A long, long time ago in a place far, far away ...

 

Sorry!

 

Originally, there were no Divisions.  EVERYONE competed head-to-head.  Then sometime (late '80s, early '90s - I'm not certain) some bright shooter go the idea to mount a red dot sight on top of his (already compensated) gun.  He did so well that others followed.  It soon became obvious it wasn't fair to compete the (now) Open and Limited guns head-to-head and Divisions were created.  At first, they were scored together then the results pulled apart for match purposes.  But, there was a flaw in the process.  Scoring them this way could (and did, occasionally) lead to shooter's places flipping from the "combined" scoring to the "divided" scoring.  Hence, it became obvious a choice had to be made on which method to use.

 

Somewhere in the mid '90s (I don't remember exactly when), the rules changed to requiring official results be posted based on all scoring done within Divisions and not across Divisions.  Without getting into the "International" nomenclatures, there was Open and Limited.  Eventually Revolver was added (as it wasn't originally its own Division,) then L10 (courtesy of the 1994 Crime Bill.)  The sport soon wanted a "Production Division," and diehards wanted to bring back their old 1911 .45's - Single Stack was born.

 

Recently we've added Carry Optics and Pistol Caliber Carbine ... and NONE of that includes any breakouts for rifles and shotguns!

 

Enough Divisions ... yet?

 

One thing is clear ... As I can remember all of that, perhaps I'm getting too old for this!  ;-)>

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PCC wont win against all the seasoned GM's shooting, experienced Open. Easier to get around a stage with a pistol. And, I can shoot some combo of Alpha's and Charlie's faster than I can shoot all Alpha's. Major is going to trump Minor any day given equal abilities of the shooters. 

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2 minutes ago, wgj3 said:

PCC wont win against all the seasoned GM's shooting, experienced Open. Easier to get around a stage with a pistol. And, I can shoot some combo of Alpha's and Charlie's faster than I can shoot all Alpha's. Major is going to trump Minor any day given equal abilities of the shooters. 

Maybe not at Nationals, but at ORSA this weekend out of 64 shooters, 5 of the top 10 were PCC. Top 2 were PCC and the top overall and PCC was a Grandmaster.

 

Even if you break out the divisions on the Practiscore menu, it gives the top of each class as a percentage score of the overall....

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3 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Maybe not at Nationals, but at ORSA this weekend out of 64 shooters, 5 of the top 10 were PCC. Top 2 were PCC and the top overall and PCC was a Grandmaster.

 

Even if you break out the divisions on the Practiscore menu, it gives the top of each class as a percentage score of the overall....

Maybe yall need to find some better Open shooters. Jason is a machine with any firearm I've seen him shoot, but I bet that even he can beat himself, as a PCC shooter, with an Open pistol. He would've likely been HOA with an Open pistol if he had been practicing that as much as PCC lately.

Doesnt he also help set up stages? Stages can certainly play into one division over others...

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