aandabooks Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 If I get a legal holster made for a AR platform 9mm pistol, can I shoot it in open?. I don't see a restriction on size of pistol or weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 I would think it would be legal, 170mm mags would be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 I'll bite. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Because??? I really don't know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Nothing in the rules against it that I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 You would have to grip it like a pistol, you cannot have a forward grip of any kind. I would take that to mean the handguard as wellSent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Hmm, could it have an arm brace/blade? You know, actually used AS A BRACE? Now I want to see it done with a Mauser C96 and strippers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 31 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said: You would have to grip it like a pistol, you cannot have a forward grip of any kind. I would take that to mean the handguard as well Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk I don't think a handguard counts a fore grip. if it did even having one and not using it would be against the rules according to 5.1.10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said: You would have to grip it like a pistol, you cannot have a forward grip of any kind. I would take that to mean the handguard as well 5.1.10 prohibits a foregrip (or shoulder stock) from even being on the handgun. EDIT: Garmil beat me to it, however I think a handguard counts as a foregrip, as a vertical foregrip is not specified and is a common term. Now I have some more thinking to do tonight. Edited March 19, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, MAC702 said: 5.1.10 prohibits a foregrip (or shoulder stock) from even being on the handgun. I wouldn't be touching my shoulder with the gun and a handguard is not a foregrip. I don't think 5.1.10 applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 5.1.10 prohibits a foregrip (or shoulder stock) from even being on the handgun.Well that would be an interesting DNROI question then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I edited my last post to show why I think a handguard counts as a foregrip. Now, I've seen AR pistols with a bare barrel and gas tube, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) So there is no foregrip here, right? This would be the equivalent of a weird grip where someone is grabbing the dustcover of their traditional pistol, right? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/cookie.jpg Edited March 19, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Definately a semantics issue there. Now I'm not 100% on the foregrip/handguard thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) The atf sees a difference between fore grips and handguards. an ar pistol with a handguard is a pistol. Once you add a foregrip it becomes an "aow" look at just about every ar pistol sold. They have handguards. The uspsa rule is preventing things that make guns not a pistol. Edited March 19, 2017 by Garmil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Garmil said: The atf sees a difference between fore grips and handguards. an ar pistol with a handguard is a pistol. Once you add a foregrip it becomes an "aow" look at just about every ar pistol sold. They have handguards. The uspsa rule is preventing things that make guns not a pistol. Everything I've seen has the ATF specifically saying a "vertical foregrip" or "forward pistol grip" on a pistol is an AOW. They even mention the Magpul AFG as an angled foregrip and legal. https://johnpierceesq.com/does-the-atf-treat-angled-fore-grips-the-same-as-vertical-fore-grips/ https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download EDIT: I don't know why my tags caused the entire second half to be underlined. It should have only been the phrases "vertical foregrip" and "pistol grip." I also can't figure out how to edit the underlining out. BEnos seems to use a very difficult editing box, compared with every other forum I'm on. Sorry. Do you know of a source where the ATF refers to a difference between a "handguard" and a non-specific "foregrip?" EDIT again: Some Googling actually gives me pause on the matter. Each use I find of "foregrip" on an AR is referring to an angled or vertical one. But we all know that neither USPSA nor the ATF will always make common sense in the application of a word or rule. Edited March 19, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) Yeah the source that shows the atf sees a difference Between handguard and foregrip is the guns that are allowed to be sold as "pistols" with handguards. Vertical Grips and Similar Installing a vertical grip on an AR pistol is illegal. It, by classification, creates an illegal Any Other Weapon (AOW). However, recent BATFE clarifications have created some options you should be aware of. The BATFE has clarified that it does not consider angled foregrips like the Magpul AFG a vertical grip and therefor it is legal to install on an AR pistol. Additionally, if the AR pistol has an overall length of 26″ or greater (the BATFE’s definition of not easily concealed) and lacks a buttstock (not an SBR), you may install a vertical grip because it does not fit the BATFE’s definition of a “handgun”. AR pistols in this configuration do not fit any BATFE definition and thus are classed generically as a “firearm”. Guns that are classified as “firearms” may have vertical fore grips installed. To be clear, in this case the term “firearm” is an actual BATFE classification of a gun that meets certain criteria not a general term used for all guns. Edited March 19, 2017 by Garmil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I see your line of thought, and give it merit, but I do note that every instance of the ATF source specifies "vertical foregrip." The ATF specifically would allow a Magpul AFG, and USPSA would clearly not. I think. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Atf allows it yes uspsa may or may not I'm guessing not but you should be safe for sure with no added grip at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 And of course ATF isn't USPSA and doesn't make any of our rules. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, teros135 said: And of course ATF isn't USPSA and doesn't make any of our rules. .. What is the uspsa definition of handgun then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 The AR carbine has a "handguard" and it is very much designed as a horizontal foregrip. A typical AR pistol's handguard is identical in construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Garmil said: What is the uspsa definition of handgun then? Well, it includes a PCC! Okay, not really. Sorry. We just have to insert "and/or PCC" whenever we see "handgun," mostly. Edited March 19, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 ATF rules have zero to do with uspsa divisional rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Aside from the whole ATF arguement, we can all agree that an AR that is chambered in 9mm and does not have a stock and a barrel of less than 16" would be classified as a pistol.. Since only pistols are allowed in Open division we have cleared that hurdle.. The issue at hand is whether a handguard is also a foregrip. If we say that the handguard is a foregrip then the rules don't have anything about where the magazine has to be inserted.. If we take that conclusion to an end then if a person runs an AR pistol with no handguard they could gain support from the weak hand by holding in front of the trigger guard. A pistol shooter is allowed put their finger in front of the trigger guard to gain support. If a handguard is not a foregrip then I don't see any issue of a 9mm AR pistol being legal in Open division as the rules currently are written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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