Accuracy vs speed, am I on the right track?

[leam]

I shoot USPSA slowly. My joke is that I enjoy the match twice as much as everyone else because it takes me twice as long. After being out for a few years I'm getting back in and moving from Single Stack to Production. 

 

In the recent match I show 97 A's out of 6 stages. It looks like the only people to shoot more were PCC, Open, or Carry Optics. I shoot a stock SIG P320. Am I on the right track to take the time I need and push for the A hits? I'm normally a D class shooter. 

[fishbone928]

You shot 81% of available points after penalties in 255 seconds.  The guys in contention to win your division shot similar points in less than half of the time.  If you had shot every single available A, you'd still have lost to the winner by 45%.

 

 

You have to go faster.  

[Hi-Power Jack]

38 minutes ago, leam said:

  Am I on the right track to take the time I need  for the A hits? I'm normally a D class shooter. 

 

Absolutely ...      IFF you'd like to continue to be a D shooter .   

 

If you'd like to become a C shooter, I'd try to pick up the speed.

 

Get your secure grip, assume the correct stance, make sure your gun is sprung optimally

and your loads are using heavier bullets with fast powders, and then do a lot of dry

firing to release the shot more quickly.

 

When I was a D shooter, I found that even a few misses, faster, still maintained my D class.

But, if I got some C hits, faster, my score went up.   

[akaider]

Since you know you can get the hits, try to speed up a little. Then a little more, then even more. Push yourself at a decent pace.

[Mikeski]

I am a Low C/High D shooter and I have been getting the same points as the M/A shooters at my club, but they are always 3-4 seconds faster than me on each stage. You have to see where you are taking your time. Are you taking too much time between 1st and 2nd shot, slow getting into a shooting position, or is it your stage plan.  I have started to video myself from a far to see how I move during a stage. I have noticed that, for me it's getting into position. I move to the next shooting spot, get set then engage the target instead of doing all that at once. As I plant my feet my gun needs to come out and by the time I'm set, my first shot needs to be off. This is something I will work on for the next few months. 

 

Watch what the other top shooters in your Division are doing, watch their stage plan and try to do it the same way. This way we can rule out stage plan. 

[Racinready300ex]

I'm going to go a little different way with this. Sure, like the guys above said you need to go faster. With out seeing you shoot, I can't really say where but for a D class shooter I can guess pretty much everything needs work.

 

The other thing I notice of a lot of D class and newer shooters is they don't really take the walk through serious. They don't air gun, they don't seem to have everything visualized. Focus on how you move, and where you need to be and how fast you're doing everything. This is a huge part of doing well. I see a lot of newer shooters kind of fast walking from position to position, forgetting what to do, doing a lot of standing reloads. If they cut all this stuff out they could make a huge leap in performance with out needing to shoot any better. Get there as early as you can and walk all the stages thoroughly, then use the hole 5 min, and then visualize as much as you can until it's your turn to shoot.

[Part_time_redneck]

A few months ago I was in the same boat, debating my accuracy and speed. That's why video is so valuable. As a human, it's in our nature to want to do something, and then think we did it. A lot of the time video will show otherwise. Regarding speed: I think it's hard to tell if you're actually going faster because every stage is so different that it's almost impossible to make a comparison unless you're simply practicing a classifier. 

 

I performed a little experiment. I shot two local matches on a weekend back to back. During the first I simply wanted to go fast. Ricky Bobby, hair on fire fast. Naturally accuracy suffered. As silly as it sounds though, this was my goal. I now had a feeling of actually how fast I could move, transition and react after the beep. 

 

The next day, I simply toned it down to 85-90% of the previous day. The results were amazing. I wasn't nesseciarily slower, but more fluid and efficient. Now I can tone it down just a bit for smaller lower point stages and have a bit in reserve for the larger ones. My point is I think the only way to know your limitations is to push a bit and experiment. 

 

I think if ancient man had firearms there would definitely be some etching on cave walls about accuracy vs speed.  Good luck and hope you find your balance. 

[johnbu]

For what it's worth, shooting fast means minimizing time between engaging targets, not yanking the trigger quicker. Run between shooting areas, push the gun harder between targets etc etc. That cuts time and improves the score.  Being confident in your stage plan lets you run it faster between shots.

 

 

While i understand the above theory...translating into practice is hard and still a work in progress!

[MikeBurgess]

the big thing I see with shooters at that level is that they really need to do everything other than the shooting faster. I believe you can get BIG gains by moving faster when you do anything but actually shoot at targets. move yourself faster from position to position, don't walk when you can run. don't draw in slow motion because the target you are shooting is difficult, know where the targets are, know where you are going next, plan where and when to reload and do it then.  Get a video of yourself shooting a few stages and look for the low hanging fruit and work on that, I bet you will find that shooting slow is not the lowest fruit.

 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

^ What he said.

 

Shoot your current pace.

Snap the gun to the next target twice as fast.

Double the pace at which you draw and change mags.

 

Most importantly, triple the speed you run.

 

Prop your phone up and put two targets at opposite ends of a room. Run back and forth between them with belt and mags, and unloaded gun in hand, and film it. You'll be shocked how fast you have to move before the video starts looking a runner and not a jogger.

 

In a match where a top guy takes 90 seconds to shoot it, there's probably 45 seconds shooting and 45 seconds of moving around and drawing and loading. The "nothing going bang" downtime.

 

You probably shoot for 100 seconds versus 45 for the top guy. The rest of your horribly slow time is spent strolling to the next position and figuring out what to do next, when he's got everything memorized and is sprinting hard.

 

Do all the non shooting stuff fast and keep shooting As. Then work on shooting faster, after you suddenly find yourself in B class.

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[CHA-LEE]

Video your stage runs and also video the top shooters runs. Then compare the runs after the match to see where you are losing the bulk of your time.

[rowdyb]

You've looked at it correctly. The core basics are hits and time. If you have the technical ability to shoot hits then the next thing to work on is reducing the time you spend doing a stage.

As MphmMech pointed out, quite a bit of it is the "everything else but the shooting". As a Prod M looking back at the C and D shooters in Prod at matches with me they do seem to fall in to two camps. #1, people who shoot enough A hits but are slow at everything. #2, people who shoot close to the same stage time as me but have multiple M, NS and maybe twice as many C hits.

 

From your self assessment, you need to work on the hurry up. The low hanging fruit normally has nothing to do with shooting, in this area.

[cas]

It depends on what you want out of the match. 

I shoot matches to have fun. To me, shooting fast is more fun than shooting slow.

My theory is "Heck, I can shoot slow anytime, lets have fun." 

Where I finish in not of particular importance anymore. (it only was very briefly)

[leam]

On 3/13/2017 at 6:36 AM, Hi-Power Jack said:

and your loads are using heavier bullets with fast powders

 

Hey Jack, I wanted to ask about this. No objection, but trying to understand. Why heavy bullets and fast powders? 

 

Thanks!

 

Leam

[MemphisMechanic]

Because that ammo will have the softest recoil.

 

We intrinsically assume that a light bullet with a slow burning powder behind it will produce the least felt recoil and muzzle rise. 

 

For a variety of reasons, this isn't true. A small charge of very fast powder underneath a heavy bullet is the softest way to load your ammo. 

 

Same thing with recoil springs. A heavy one doesn't soak up recoil - it just makes the gun flip more. A spring 4 to 6 pounds lighter than factory is virtually standard in every production shooter's gun.

Edited March 16, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[leam]

Very cool, thanks! Looks like some Blue 147's should be on the order list. A friend gave me some VV N320, I think it was to start an addiction.  

 

[GunBugBit]

You'll get faster if you direct your attention and energy toward getting faster.  You will do it.

[leam]

Shot my first Steel Challenge match yesterday. Fun stuff! What I find interesting is the potential classification. Assuming my math and understanding of the system is correct my Steel (39.7126) classification not that distant from my USPSA (35.7065) classification. Would it be correct to say that my "get up and go" classification thus closely matches my "accuracy and speed" classification?

[sundevil827]

I'm of the opinion that it's a lot easier to improve something, if I can measure it.

 

If you don't have a measurement on what you are doing (draw, reload, splits and transitions) telling someone to go faster can be meaningless. Start with a few basics, and then it's pretty easy to go from there. Earning a "B" card isn't all that hard to do with some work coming from "D" class. It's a hell of a lot less intimidating when you break it all down and realize you don't have to go rocket fast.

 

Take El Pres (CM 99-11) it's an easy breakdown, and it calls on a few simple skills.

 

According to AZ Shooters Classifier Calc a 60% in Production requires a Hit Factor of 6.16. 

For Production, say you run it 9 Alpha, 3 Charlie for 54/60 points. Divide the points by the hit factor and you have 8.76 seconds to shoot it.

 

Now just run the math backwards:

Turn and Draw to 1st shot 2 seconds

First Split   .40 seconds

Transition  .50 seconds

Second Split .40 seconds

Transition .5 seconds

Third Split .4 seconds 

****4.2 Seconds First Part****

Reload 2 seconds

First Split .40 seconds

Transition .5 seconds

Second Split .4 seconds

Transition .5 seconds

Third Split .4 seconds

****4.2 Seconds 2nd part***

 

8.4 Seconds total......

 

Now you can set a par time for practice, and you'll realize how quickly you can make those marks, and you'll start going faster, but now you have measurable goals that you can work towards, and that's raw shooting stuff. Are you going to want to have a faster draw? Absolutely. Are you going to want to have a faster reload? Of course. None of this is going to help you work on movement, stage plans, entry and exit from ports, or shooting on the move among other skills, and shooting a "B" classifier doesn't mean you will be competitive in "B" Class unless you develop those other skills. (Unless your club only runs stand and shoot stages....) 

 

Running the math helped me develop a shooting cadence, it helped me focus on the ability to see enough of my sights to get the hits I needed, and was an excellent baseline for some pretty basic info. For me, D to B was an awful lot of low hanging fruit, now, in order to get better, and be more competitive, I need the work on all those other skills, and the whole thing has to come together. Once I've got the basic measurements of where I'm at, I can use that to set useful dry fire goals, as well as help work out a live fire plan and actually judge my progress, and find areas that need the most work. 

 

Your mileage may vary, and I'm certainly no expert. I spent 40 years having never touched a firearm, and when I got into shooting, I took this as sound advice for a place to start, and the process from D to B was relatively quick. My overall competitiveness in matches though lagged, because I needed all the other skills too, but again, one thing at a time, and those are all things that I can work on as well. It's certainly a better answer, for me, than simply "go faster at everything." It essentially the same answer, but it broke it down into measurable bits that make setting goals possible.

Edited March 27, 2017 by sundevil827

[MemphisMechanic]

@sundevil827 has it right. D to B is easy, although it takes longer if you don't practice - or at least shoot a lot of matches.

 

You work on the non-trigger-pulling things and get those down. The low hanging fruit, if you will. Draws. Reloads. Running fast. You can make B with lots of speed and relatively little accuracy.

 

B class is where most casual shooters top out. Those who don't practice, and don't usually shoot at all aside from their local matches.

 

(The good news about that is that if you dryfire and work on just getting you gunhandling, running, and entering / exiting really fast, B comes quickly.)

 

Getting to A is where you have to combine accuracy with the speed of a good B class shooter and really fine tune everything. Most shooters can't get into A without some form of regular practice... which is also why most As eventually progress to M. They're the kind of guys who are willing to put the work in during the week, identifying their weaknesses and working them hard.

Edited March 27, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[chopinlover]

Double the time and only 90 some As in 6 stages? How many rounds per stage? I cant image this...

[sstephns]

As others have said, make sure the basics are sound, then ramp up the speed. You may lose some hits I'm the A zone, but if you cut your time by 25%, you'll see the difference

[leam]

On 3/13/2017 at 10:22 AM, Racinready300ex said:

I'm going to go a little different way with this. Sure, like the guys above said you need to go faster. With out seeing you shoot, I can't really say where but for a D class shooter I can guess pretty much everything needs work.

 

The other thing I notice of a lot of D class and newer shooters is they don't really take the walk through serious. They don't air gun, they don't seem to have everything visualized. Focus on how you move, and where you need to be and how fast you're doing everything. This is a huge part of doing well. I see a lot of newer shooters kind of fast walking from position to position, forgetting what to do, doing a lot of standing reloads. If they cut all this stuff out they could make a huge leap in performance with out needing to shoot any better. Get there as early as you can and walk all the stages thoroughly, then use the hole 5 min, and then visualize as much as you can until it's your turn to shoot.

 

Mike, because if this I specifically made time to walk through each stage and come up with a shooting plan that played to my strengths and challenges. What I don't yet have is a good way to make sure I stick to the really good plan I create. 2 FTEs because I failed to track the stage and two or three targets with extra holes 'cause I couldn't remember if I had hit them yet or not.

[leam]

On 4/3/2017 at 6:07 PM, chopinlover said:

Double the time and only 90 some As in 6 stages? How many rounds per stage? I cant image this...

 

This group likes high round count complex stages. While it's a pain for me as a D shooter it's good training.

[Hi-Power Jack]

With more experience, it becomes easier to keep track of all the targets and remember to shoot them all twice

(not zero, and not 4x)