Thaunk Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 So apologies in advance for being that guy. I got DQ'd this weekend for what I think would be "unsafe handling" of a firearm. I have it in quotes because I'm not sure it fits to be perfectly honest. I did attempt a protest and I hope the other folks in my squad think I handled it well. If not, sorry folks. Here's what happened. It was my turn to shoot, obviously, and the start condition for the stage is an unloaded pistol on a barrel with the first magazine also on the barrel. I could have sworn I heard make ready, which would have solved all my issues, but the RO says he never said it and the squad agreed, so I'm hearing things. My question is, with an unloaded pistol not on my person and the entire squad behind me, how exactly is this unsafe gun handling? There was no physical way for the pistol to do anything. Or is there a different rule that applies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Doesn't really need a rule to cover the unloaded gun with nobody down range. You took your gun out of the holster without direction of the RO. Automatic DQ regardless of any other circumstance.. Unloaded table starts are probably the second or third leading cause of DQ behind 180 and AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahD Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I'm not sure I'm clear based on your post but I think you are saying you drew your unloaded pistol and set it on the barrel prior to the 'make ready' command? If so that violates... 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. My apologies if I am misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 ^^^Nailed it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 the 'problem' is the rules are proactive/redundant in nature. are you unsafe if you point your muzzle 91 degrees to your left? of course not, because no one should be standing beside you. but 90/180 gives the RO time to stop you before you get to 100, 125, etc. same deal with whipping out your gun before the RO says you can. if you have to wait til he says, then two people (you and him) have presumably verified downrange is clear. and of course if he's not ready for you to whip it out, he's not scrutinizing your actions to ensure you are safe. what you did happens and no one was necessarily unsafe. but it's a rule and now you know to make certain the RO has said to make ready. if i'm not sure i heard the exact words, i always ask, better safe than sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Having issued this very DQ at a different match, let me tell you how much I hate it as an RO. I agree with it, I understand it, but I hate sending someone home for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Yes, indeed. We all don't like having to record the DQ. However, we didn't do the DQ. Somebody had a brain fart, or didn't read the rules, or got distracted, or whatever. The safety rules are there to promote safety and protect everyone at the match. I'll bet the folks that were there, and those reading this thread, will be more thoughtful and deliberate at their next match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaunk Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 8 hours ago, JeremiahD said: I'm not sure I'm clear based on your post but I think you are saying you drew your unloaded pistol and set it on the barrel prior to the 'make ready' command? If so that violates... 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. My apologies if I am misunderstanding. Nope hit the nail head. That's exactly what I was looking for and couldn't find. I shot another match the next day and I was certainly more cognizant of range commands. I'm hoping this weekend got all of my stupid out so I shoot the whole sc state march at the end of the month. The one bright side I have to the day is I'm prophetic. I told a lady she couldn't possibly be last because I was there. And I was right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 11 hours ago, Thaunk said: My question is, with an unloaded pistol not on my person and the entire squad behind me, how exactly is this unsafe gun handling? There was no physical way for the pistol to do anything. No rule (probably) is perfect for every conceivable circumstance, sometimes I think they can be both necessary and near perfect for the vast majority of circumstances. On the bright side, as your learn the rules more thoroughly you will find that sometimes there are ways to cheat . R.O.'s can help keep folks out of trouble by - keeping loud chatter down (if squad has arseholes) - getting precise about range commands - using their loud and clear voice. I got busted (and was a bit pissy) at my first L2 match for a similar but different situation, will not do that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaunk Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) Yeah the RO said if he'd saw me prior to handling the pistol he'd have gotten me to stop before he DQ'd me. I don't want to give the impression I'm mad at the guy. He was super nice prior to it and after. It wasn't his fault. I just want to understand better what the rules were. Apparently I needed to look about half a pager lower and it would have covered it exactly. On my way out talking to another shooter I know he said he'd been disqualified 3 times since 1995 I believe. This got me wondering. I've been DQ 3 times in 3 years. Once in IDPA, once in 3 gun, and now once in USPSA. Am I particularly bad about this? Edited March 13, 2017 by Thaunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Wait until you read the rule book on the subject of AD's! You think this rule doesn't make sense. Lol There any number of ways you can accidentally discharge your gun and not be DQed. moral of the story is read the rule book many many times. If you are like me you will learn something new every time you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Thaunk said: Yeah the RO said if he'd saw me prior to handling the pistol he'd have gotten me to stop before he DQ'd me. I don't want to give the impression I'm mad at the guy. He was super nice prior to it and after. It wasn't his fault. I just want to understand better what the rules were. Apparently I needed to look about half a pager lower and it would have covered it exactly. On my way out talking to another shooter I know he said he'd been disqualified 3 times since 1995 I believe. This got me wondering. I've been DQ 3 times in 3 years. Once in IDPA, once in 3 gun, and now once in USPSA. Am I particularly bad about this? Maybe. Maybe not. We had a local USPSA shooter DQ at 2-3 local matches in a few months time. THAT is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sarge said: Wait until you read the rule book on the subject of AD's! You think this rule doesn't make sense. Lol There any number of ways you can accidentally discharge your gun and not be DQed. moral of the story is read the rule book many many times. If you are like me you will learn something new every time you do. And I'd add that reading BE is one of the best things you can do for yourself. There's a wealth of info here, and I'd have to say I've learned at least as much here as in conversations at the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, Thaunk said: ... On my way out talking to another shooter I know he said he'd been disqualified 3 times since 1995 I believe. This got me wondering. I've been DQ 3 times in 3 years. Once in IDPA, once in 3 gun, and now once in USPSA. Am I particularly bad about this? You didn't say what the DQs were for. There could be a problem if you're not fully involved in reading and understanding the rules for each discipline, and the basic rules for safety (Jeff Cooper's four rules, etc.). Chapter 10 of the USPSA rule book is pretty comprehensive regarding gun handling, and those rules are basically set up around Cooper's principles (and common sense). The other thing I've seen a lot of, especially with newer shooters, is plain 'ole bad range habits that come from how folks learned to handle guns. Watching too many movies or TV with bad gun handling (running around with finger on trigger, for instance, or with the gun in the famous "lobotomy position", pointing upward in front of their own face) and/or having "learned" a lot of sloppy gun safety from range buddies or relatives who have been "shooting for 60 years, never shot anybody" (yet) gives us a bad start at action shooting safety. When we get to USPSA/Multi-gun/IDPA we have to unlearn a number of bad habits and replace them with good ones. Practice and dryfire gets us there - as does good calls by alert ROs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaunk Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 IDPA shooting Production with a Walther. The front sight caught on the holster and my hand kept going. Gun fell out of the holster and my hand came up empty, which I found shocking at the time. My buddy recorded the draw on his Iphone. It's amusing in retrospect possibly. Three gun, oddly enough also in March, I had my finger on the trigger of my shotgun while moving, tripped, sent a round over the berm and then my competition belt fell off to complete the look. More cognizant of the trigger now and I purchased a keeper for the belt. I should say my 3 DQs have occurred at a pace of 1 a year and I'm starting my 3rd year of shooting. Maybe I should just avoid shooting in March? I'm not sure the habits I have are bad so much as nonexistent as I've had to learn as I go. No shooting background in my family or friends until I started this. I was in fact reading the section on ADs and I'll likely have questions once I think I understand what I'm seeing. I will say I was currently confused by some of it, but so far none of it's impacted me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Well, practice (and "perfect practice") seems to help a lot of those types of issues. The trigger finger is one that takes some time if you've learned it wrong. I've found that conscious and repetitious dryfire helps to change finger position and increase awareness of where it is on the gun (and also conscious awareness of muzzle position). Basically you can plaster your finger on the side of the frame for all movements EXCEPT firing at targets; that seems to help most folks. (The finger-on-trigger thing is so ingrained from TV that it needs specific therapy to change it.) Please ask questions whenever you have them. This is a great place to learn! March is ok - it's our brain that gets out of season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 If you aren't sure that you heard make ready, ask the RO "Did you say Make Ready?"...If you aren't sure that you heard make ready, do nothing...Make the RO state it again. When it's my turn to shoot, I do not step into the shooting area (if at all possible) until I hear make ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 minute ago, GrumpyOne said: ...When it's my turn to shoot, I do not step into the shooting area (if at all possible) until I hear make ready. That's a good strategy, Grumpy. Another level of fail-safe. Think I'll adopt it, too. Thaunk, I also ask the RO if he said "make ready" if I'm in any way not sure he said it (especially when double-plugged in Open). BTW, last year some folks (not the RO) were talking about the "make ready" command behind a shooter who was awaiting "MR". He heard it and started to make ready. The RO was paying attention, saw what had happened, and didn't penalize the shooter (who was reacting to a range command he had actually heard). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I've tried to get in the habit off hearing AND seeing "make ready". Sometimes with all the gun fire and chatter the RO can be tough to hear. There are those instances like above too where "make ready" comes from the peanut gallery and not the RO. Also as an RO, if you say "hold on, don't make ready" you just said "make ready". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan454 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I almost had to DQ a new shooter for this very thing last Fall and have started talking with all new shooters to make sure they fully understand the range commands before each match. On the first stage I like to reiterate the most common DQ related offenses in a group setting, it's no fun to DQ someone and I'd rather sound like a broken record with regards to unsafe gun handling than ruin someone's day. With regards to "chatter" in the background, I've found myself on several occasions confirming that the RO said Make Ready to avoid getting DQ'd. With good hearing protection it can be very difficult to hear the RO with an Open gun going full steam in the next bay. Eye contact while giving or receiving range commands is never a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremiahD Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 hours ago, teros135 said: ..., or with the gun in the famous "lobotomy position", pointing upward in front of their own face) ... I remember an instructor calling it the "high Sabrina" ('70's charlies angles reference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, JeremiahD said: I remember an instructor calling it the "high Sabrina" ('70's charlies angles reference) I would guess the "low Sabrina" position wouldn't be all that fun, either. I hate looking at muzzles when they're loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, Alaskan454 said: With regards to "chatter" in the background, Another of those fuzzy things. My personal preference is for folks to shut up when a shooter is preparing to start, but some squads seem to have fun with the chatter and you don't want to poop on their parade. I'm not certain what the right approach is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said: Another of those fuzzy things. My personal preference is for folks to shut up when a shooter is preparing to start, but some squads seem to have fun with the chatter and you don't want to poop on their parade. I'm not certain what the right approach is. Well, it isn't like golf (with its reverent, church-like silence), but I would think it's reasonable to keep the chatter down to a point that it doesn't interfere with the shooter or the ROs. What that level is might be different depending on circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 14 hours ago, Thaunk said: I sworn I heard "make ready:, but the RO says he never said it I'm 72 years old, and Very Hard of Hearing (What did you say, Sonny?), so I pop my right ear muff off while waiting for the range commands. If I have any question about what the young whipper snapper said, I question him (didja say "Make Ready"?) Just part of my getting ready to shoot that I incorporated years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now