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Pulling shots while coming off a target


daytona955i

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I'm getting POA as POI most of the time, but occasionally I'm getting complete misses. On video, it's clear I'm moving the gun before the shot breaks. On the surface, this is pretty simple. I know I need to stop doing that but it's proving hard to correct in live fire.

 

Right before a reload or on the last target in an array are when I do it the most, but occasionally it will be a random target, always the second or last shot. 

 

When I shoot an auto I get off the target fast without settling the front sight back down to reduce transition time and haven't had this issue. When I follow through and bring the sight back down, I feel like I'm moving through syrup.

 

Has anyone else had this problem? Any remedies besides just working on knocking it off?

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Patience grass hopper.  Stoegers new dry fire book has a new drill that is perfect for the issue you are having.  I have this problem too, especially on steel targets.  You just have to learn to get your sight picture, press the trigger straight, call a good shot and then move on.  It feels slow but it is faster then makeups and earns more points than mikes.  

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I spent a few weeks this winter working on the exact same issue.  For me I was consistently less accurate with the second shot out of the holster on a plate based drill or the last shot before reloading/moving on any kind of target.   After spending some time to figure it out I wasn't actually feeling the trigger hit the stop before starting to move my gun to the next target.  I set up Smoke and Hope at 50 yards which purposely used large plates and wide transitions to figure out where my shots were landing.  After a few hours of range time I got it sorted, I just needed to make sure the trigger went all the way back before transitioning the gun.  If you have access to large plates I'd try those or just set-up two paper targets 10-15 yards apart and go back and forth between them with double taps and single shots.

 

  

Edited by Alaskan454
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  • 2 weeks later...

Harder?

FWIW, if you're pulling the shot off target during transitions you are NOT seeing the front sight lift from the rear sight notch.

Which means you're already moving the gun before the shot breaks.  The solution is to "see" the front sight lift and then move the gun, patience is the key "albeit in micro-seconds".

If you're tending to shoot over the top of the target, holding the gun harder may help.  But there you are doing so because you didn't actually see the front sight before pulling the trigger.

Look up some of TGO's you tube video's his insights are priceless.

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Dave, sounds to me like he knows what to do, but is having a hard time being patient because it feels like his sights are returning to the target "through syrup."  With a revolver, there is no reciprocating slide to help the gun come back down, there is only tension from the shooter's grip on the gun.  

 

The syrupy feeling will go away if the sights (1) don't rise as much in the first place, and (2) snap back onto target faster and more positively.  Gripping the gun harder will help with both of those.

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4 hours ago, Carmoney said:

Dave, sounds to me like he knows what to do, but is having a hard time being patient because it feels like his sights are returning to the target "through syrup."  With a revolver, there is no reciprocating slide to help the gun come back down, there is only tension from the shooter's grip on the gun.  

 

The syrupy feeling will go away if the sights (1) don't rise as much in the first place, and (2) snap back onto target faster and more positively.  Gripping the gun harder will help with both of those.

The problem I had and am working on wasn't slow splits or transitions between every shot, but specifically before I'd move from one position to another or the last shot before a reload. 

 

I usually agree that a tighter grip can fix most issues that arise in handgun shooting, but I'm not sure it applies to this unique issue.

 

Put it this way. Imagine I'm shooting an el prez at 10 yards in 8 seconds, 11 A hits and a Mike. The Mike is the 6th shot. Would you think it was the grip?

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Confirming you made a good call would be checking your hits down range after you were finished with the stage. If your waiting for your sights to return back to where they were when you fired the shot....especially if it was your second shot....your most likley not winning.  

 

If your shooting a plate rack and you called a good shot your gun should be coming down onto the next plate from recoil, not where the falling plate was to confirm you hit it. 

Edited by CrashDodson
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3 hours ago, daytona955i said:

The problem I had and am working on wasn't slow splits or transitions between every shot, but specifically before I'd move from one position to another or the last shot before a reload. 

 

I usually agree that a tighter grip can fix most issues that arise in handgun shooting, but I'm not sure it applies to this unique issue.

 

Put it this way. Imagine I'm shooting an el prez at 10 yards in 8 seconds, 11 A hits and a Mike. The Mike is the 6th shot. Would you think it was the grip?

Depends on where the missed shot was. Was it over the target?  Then you didnt let the gun come back before ripping that second shot. If your right handed and you missed left or left high possibly trying to hit that reload and not even looking at your sights as that second round goes off.  I would call this visual patience.  Calling a good second shot on that third target before executing the reload. 

 

If your dry firing be honest with your sight picture. Pull the trigger hard. Call that mike in dry fire. If your running your dry fire in balls on fire mode and not calling your shot you will do the same thing at the range.  

Edited by CrashDodson
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I consider myself match ready when I can clear a five plate plate rack in +- 2 from low ready. 

.90 low ready+- to first plate, and splits about .28. And 9 out of 10 times multiple times. 

I watch my sight go up and come back down same spot with plate still standing, that's right the gun is back in line ready for next shot before the plate visible starts to move, them move the gun to next plate. Sometimes if I get low hits on first two plates I will be on plate three before I notice first two falling. Makes you think you missed first two shots, except that there was white behind front sight at start and finish so you know they are good hits. This is the information I'm seeing during the cycle of a shot not just splits. 

The point is every single shot needs to have this kind of follow through even your last shot. 

A good tight grip and wrist tension as Carmoney pointed out and watching front sight just like I read print for the entire cycle is how I over came bad last shot syndrome. 

Watching the front sight start to finish, you will see a bad trigger pull before the shot breaks. The front sight doing figure eights during recoil is a weak grip. And the front sight not stopping exactly were it left is a tension problem. And it all happens way faster then you think.

I see the above said information during a shot at splits as fast as I can shoot roughly .2 second. You have got to wait for and make sure the front sight is settled before you move on. Funny thing is it doesn't seem slow to me, my perseption is the sight come down just as fast as it went up.

JA

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If you call the shot as the sights lift in recoil, I dont follow how watching the sights come back on target has anything to do with shot calling or what your calling confirming.  

 

If you have a bad trigger pull and dont see that in the sights, but your gun returns to your point of aim, what have you confirmed?

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Properly gripped and tensioned your gun will cycle right back to were it left from.

If you broke a shot with bad trigger control but didn't see the front sight move or you thought you had a good sight picture when the shot broke, but now your gun comes down out of recoil with the front sight way outside the rear notch or completely off the target.  You just confirmed to your self that not only did you NOT call your shot but that the shot was completely lost to you and most likely a miss and you want be able to remember anything about that particular shot. 

This is why I call it confirming your call. And this is the essence of what is causing the last shot miss. I know a long way of simple saying FOLLOW THROUGH.

I know that you just described the gun return to point of aim but honestly that doesn't happpen to me anymore when I'm on my game gripped and tensioned properly.

 

 

 

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On 3/29/2017 at 0:25 PM, daytona955i said:

The problem I had and am working on wasn't slow splits or transitions between every shot, but specifically before I'd move from one position to another or the last shot before a reload. 

 

I usually agree that a tighter grip can fix most issues that arise in handgun shooting, but I'm not sure it applies to this unique issue.

 

Put it this way. Imagine I'm shooting an el prez at 10 yards in 8 seconds, 11 A hits and a Mike. The Mike is the 6th shot. Would you think it was the grip?

Not in itself, you're lacking the patience and visual observations needed.  If the Mike is the sixth shot, you're starting the reload before the shot is off.

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We shot USPSA qualifiers this weekend. I was paying particular attention to the draw to first shot of the Master and GM shooters.

They positively (firmly) grip the gun, put it on target and align the sights.  And not until everything is perfect do they start firing.

Their times to first shot look slower (I didn't measure) but their overall times are noticeably faster.

This is of course the opposite of your last shot dilemma.  These good shooters see every shot and don't move on till that last shot is taken and recoil has completed.

There are no short cuts that will make you a better shooter.  Every motion in order and only practice makes if faster.

 

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7 hours ago, GMM50 said:

We shot USPSA qualifiers this weekend. I was paying particular attention to the draw to first shot of the Master and GM shooters.

They positively (firmly) grip the gun, put it on target and align the sights.  And not until everything is perfect do they start firing.

Their times to first shot look slower (I didn't measure) but their overall times are noticeably faster.

This is of course the opposite of your last shot dilemma.  These good shooters see every shot and don't move on till that last shot is taken and recoil has completed.

There are no short cuts that will make you a better shooter.  Every motion in order and only practice makes if faster.

 

Uh ha

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On 4/1/2017 at 0:38 PM, pskys2 said:

Not in itself, you're lacking the patience and visual observations needed.  If the Mike is the sixth shot, you're starting the reload before the shot is off.

Yes, that's clearly what I was doing, I said so in the original post.

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On 3/29/2017 at 7:26 PM, JAustin said:

Properly gripped and tensioned your gun will cycle right back to were it left from.

If you broke a shot with bad trigger control but didn't see the front sight move or you thought you had a good sight picture when the shot broke, but now your gun comes down out of recoil with the front sight way outside the rear notch or completely off the target.  You just confirmed to your self that not only did you NOT call your shot but that the shot was completely lost to you and most likely a miss and you want be able to remember anything about that particular shot. 

This is why I call it confirming your call. And this is the essence of what is causing the last shot miss. I know a long way of simple saying FOLLOW THROUGH.

I know that you just described the gun return to point of aim but honestly that doesn't happpen to me anymore when I'm on my game gripped and tensioned properly.

 

 

 

There's no guarantee that the place the sights return to is exactly where it left from and even if it was, waiting for the sights to come back is a waste of time. You call the shot on the break, then move on. You can't make a change once the bullet has left. 

 

In dry firing I can tell that I'm not really in the moment, I'm thinking ahead to the next step while I'm going through the cylinder. 

 

The patience pays off on paper, but I can do better on the timer. 

 

I've been working on my reloads, but killer dry fire reloads aren't working as well in live fire with a hot cylinder, even though I don't see any corners I'm cutting on video. 

 

More to work on.

Edited by daytona955i
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On 3/10/2017 at 8:42 AM, daytona955i said:

I'm getting POA as POI most of the time, but occasionally I'm getting complete misses. On video, it's clear I'm moving the gun before the shot breaks. On the surface, this is pretty simple. I know I need to stop doing that but it's proving hard to correct in live fire.

 

Right before a reload or on the last target in an array are when I do it the most, but occasionally it will be a random target, always the second or last shot. 

 

When I shoot an auto I get off the target fast without settling the front sight back down to reduce transition time and haven't had this issue. When I follow through and bring the sight back down, I feel like I'm moving through syrup.

 

Has anyone else had this problem? Any remedies besides just working on knocking it off?

Ok I see my mistake. You want a remedy, what I see is regardless.

Here is how I broke it down and the exercise to go with.

 

Next time you go to the range do some shooting without any target of any kind just you and your front sight.

Step #1

         Focus on the front sight just like you read print.

Step #2

         Firing without blinking or loosing focus on the front sight.

Step #3

          Adjust grip and tension so that your front sight goes straight up and straight 

          back down.

Step #4

          Adjust grip and tension so that you front sight stops lined up with the rear 

          sight.

Now shoot this exercise until this is habit.

Now your ready for targets.

I actually start every practice session with this exercise. I like to call it tuning.

All other practice is pointless until I'm tuned. Sometimes one shot and yep I'm in tune, other times might take 25 or more to settle in.

This tuning concept really helped the match jitters as well because the first few shots I take I really pay attention to tuning and can settle in pretty quickly.

There you have it, I just didn't say don't do it any more????

JA

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On 4/3/2017 at 7:36 PM, JAustin said:

Ok I see my mistake. You want a remedy, what I see is regardless.

Here is how I broke it down and the exercise to go with.

 

Next time you go to the range do some shooting without any target of any kind just you and your front sight.

Step #1

         Focus on the front sight just like you read print.

Step #2

         Firing without blinking or loosing focus on the front sight.

Step #3

          Adjust grip and tension so that your front sight goes straight up and straight 

          back down.

Step #4

          Adjust grip and tension so that you front sight stops lined up with the rear 

          sight.

Now shoot this exercise until this is habit.

Now your ready for targets.

I actually start every practice session with this exercise. I like to call it tuning.

All other practice is pointless until I'm tuned. Sometimes one shot and yep I'm in tune, other times might take 25 or more to settle in.

This tuning concept really helped the match jitters as well because the first few shots I take I really pay attention to tuning and can settle in pretty quickly.

There you have it, I just didn't say don't do it any more????

JA

I've have never really named this exercise anything. From now on I shall call it The ATE. Austins Tuning Exercise.

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