90lxracer

Am I missing something?? DQ question..

37 posts in this topic

I"m still in the process of taking both USPSA and Multi-Gun match operation in..Having not yet shot in a match.

 

So my question falls into the what I "think" should have happened here.. 

 

I went to observe a multi-gun match, and there was a competitor who in my view should have been DQ'd for a 180 violation, but to my knowledge wasn't.. 

 

The scenario:

 

Facing downrange, the first array is separated by a wall from the rest of the COF.. The shooter finished the array, and instead of either running forward to the hole in the fence, and moving to the 2nd array, OR backing out to maneuver around the fences (this is a from left to right movement) The shooter spins left, turing a 360 to keep the fence to his left side. muzzle WAS facing down.. so there was at least that.. but he was not stopped, and allowed to finish the stage. After watching that.. My buddy and I just left that area and watched another squad.. I don't know if the shooter was DQ'd after or what.. But I guess my question, or thought is; shouldn't he ahve been stopped and DQ'd right there? 

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Posted (edited)

The muzzle must break the 180 to be DQ'd.

Your body position is irrelevant. 

 

ETA:  

I took "muzzle WAS facing down" to mean downrange. 

If you mean't down, as in at the ground, and the shooter spun a full 360*, then yes.  It almost certainly should have been a DQ. 

Edited by Ssanders224

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15 minutes ago, 90lxracer said:

  muzzle WAS facing down range ...

 

You can perform acrobatic motions, stand on your head, take a nap -

as long as the muzzle is facing down range.

 

Sometimes they'll have a course where you start downrange and

have to back up - most shooters keep their muzzle downrange

and run back facing the spectators - don't run backwards, but

keep the muzzle down range.   :) 

 

BTW, have a ball when you shoot your first match - great question, too ....    :bow:

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Ive watched a shooter trip, do a tactical roll, with muzzle facing downrange perfectly, as he should we only applaueded him at COF end, he remained his cool. 

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10 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

The muzzle must break the 180 to be DQ'd.

Your body position is irrelevant. 

 

ETA:  

I took "muzzle WAS facing down" to mean downrange. 

If you mean't down, as in at the ground, and the shooter spun a full 360*, then yes.  It almost certainly should have been a DQ. 

 

 

The muzzle was pointed at the ground.. not downrange..

 

That's wha tI was thinking as well.. I think the shooter just got caught up in the "fog of war" with it BUT the RO didn't stop him either.. I wasn't in the match and niether was my buddy.. so we just commented to ourselves and moved to a watching a different squad. 

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10 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

You can perform acrobatic motions, stand on your head, take a nap -

as long as the muzzle is facing down range.

 

Sometimes they'll have a course where you start downrange and

have to back up - most shooters keep their muzzle downrange

and run back facing the spectators - don't run backwards, but

keep the muzzle down range.   :) 

 

BTW, have a ball when you shoot your first match - great question, too ....    :bow:

 

That is a misquote. 

I read it the same way at first, but that is not what the OP said. 

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Under what rule set was the match being run? please quote the rule from that rule set that would DQ the shooter.

 

This is one of the BIGGEST problem with most multigun matches being run as "Outlaw" matches, the only rule set is whatever the MD says they are, or even when they are published they are often incomplete and in some cases not very strict on safety issues. 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Under what rule set was the match being run? please quote the rule from that rule set that would DQ the shooter.

 

This is one of the BIGGEST problem with most multigun matches being run as "Outlaw" matches, the only rule set is whatever the MD says they are, or even when they are published they are often incomplete and in some cases not very strict on safety issues. 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't know what rule set was used.. I was a casual ocsever here, so I had no dog in the fight, so I didn't care one way or another. There were some "grumblings" for the rest of the squad as it happened.. but we didn't stick around to find out what the final call was on the situation. 

 

Plus.. I don't know the difference between outlaw and whatever else ther eis out there... The question is merely more of a getting an understand of what is or isn't normal or what have you..

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1 hour ago, 90lxracer said:

I honestly don't know what rule set was used.. I was a casual ocsever here, so I had no dog in the fight, so I didn't care one way or another. There were some "grumblings" for the rest of the squad as it happened.. but we didn't stick around to find out what the final call was on the situation. 

 

Plus.. I don't know the difference between outlaw and whatever else ther eis out there... The question is merely more of a getting an understand of what is or isn't normal or what have you..

I would say the situation you described would normally be a DQ at most matches.

My point was the rules vary match to match so there is now way to really know what the correct to the rules answer is. 

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Are there "outlaw" rules that can be found? Or is that just something that's going to change from venue to venue? It's it just a rule set that's not 3 gun nation or USPSA?? 

 

Forgive my ignorance here.. lol 

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901xracer you are correct! 

They are similar, but will be different.

Most matches have their rules posted on their website and you should just read them first! :-)

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I'm a little confused why this is clear to most. Depends on the angle I guess. If you point the muzzle straight down vertically you can run around in any direction and not break the 180.

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I saw someone do this at a match once. Everyone thought DQ but after it was talked through he wasn't DQ'd. He did scare the entire squad and there was no advantage to the maneuver. Dumb move IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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10 hours ago, L3324 said:

I saw someone do this at a match once. Everyone thought DQ but after it was talked through he wasn't DQ'd. He did scare the entire squad and there was no advantage to the maneuver. Dumb move IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 It did startle me a bit! lol I'm sure it wasn't intentinal, and it sure wasn't going to be any manner of competitive advantage for the guy. He was an older gentleman, and mobility wasn't his strong suit, so winning wasn't something on the table regardless. But it shouldn't be an excuse to be unsafe either.. 

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Posted (edited)

i had a guy do that while i was running him, just turned the wrong way.  rifle was pointed straight down (at the ground) so he didn't muzzle anyone.  but the 180 rule means the muzzle is on the downrange side of the shooter.  in this case it was definitely uprange, so dq and he had no problem with that and stopped before i told him to stop.  unfortunate as again there was no safety issue, but certainly would have been if he had been at low ready (ie gun at 45) and did a 360.

Edited by davsco

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23 hours ago, 90lxracer said:

I"m still in the process of taking both USPSA and Multi-Gun match operation in..Having not yet shot in a match.

 

39 posts and you haven't shot a match yet??  get in the game and start having fun!!!

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3 minutes ago, davsco said:
23 hours ago, 90lxracer said:

I"m still in the process of taking both USPSA and Multi-Gun match operation in..Having not yet shot in a match.

 

39 posts and you haven't shot a match yet??  get in the game and start having fun!!!

I've been in equipment selection mode..  I'm going to do USPSA stuff too.. so going from nothing that really worked to have competition things have taken a bit.. I plan on hitting up a USPSA match weekend after next, and maybe the steel challenge here locally. 

 

I now have a glock 34 that I traded for..it's just "ok" to me.. so I bought a tanfoglio and it is sitting at Jim Bodkin's to get dolled up.. working on reconfigurnig an AR I have, and still determinng which shotgun to get.. 

 

still time to get in some dry fire stuff, and gun game manipulation work.. I'm not waiting to jump in.. I'm just "off cycle" right now.. lol

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31 minutes ago, davsco said:

i had a guy do that while i was running him, just turned the wrong way.  rifle was pointed straight down (at the ground) so he didn't muzzle anyone.  but the 180 rule means the muzzle is on the downrange side of the shooter.  in this case it was definitely uprange, so dq and he had no problem with that and stopped before i told him to stop.  unfortunate as again there was no safety issue, but certainly would have been if he had been at low ready (ie gun at 45) and did a 360.

Do you have a rule that says this? (muzzle needing to be on the down range side of the shooter) 

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If the muzzle is not pointing Down Range it's pointing Up Range and that is a DQ.

 

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Posted (edited)

I want to watch a shooter index a muzzle EXACTLY straight down during a high speed "wrong way" turn without either bringing it one degree sloped uprange, or sweeping his own leg/foot.

 

(What I'm picturing in my mind is a shooter who was at the left end of a wall, and spun the long way around to his own left, in order to move to the right end of that wall. More or less a 270-degree spin.)

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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14 hours ago, Garmil said:

I'm a little confused why this is clear to most. Depends on the angle I guess. If you point the muzzle straight down vertically you can run around in any direction and not break the 180.

 

Good luck with that. 

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

I want to watch a shooter index a muzzle EXACTLY straight down during a high speed "wrong way" turn without either bringing it one degree sloped uprange, or sweeping his own leg/foot.

 

(What I'm picturing in my mind is a shooter who was at the left end of a wall, and spun the long way around to his own left, in order to move to the right end of that wall. More or less a 270-degree spin.)

 

Your mind's eye is right.. he was at the end of the wall section.. his right shoulder basically touching the wall.. the rest of the stage was to his right. The  "correct" options at that point.. move downrange to a break in the wall and move right, Or move straight back, while still facing downrange, and back around the fence section and move to the next array..  He chose to turn to HIS left (muzzle at the ground) and face *us* and walk around the fence keeping it to his left side.

Edited by 90lxracer

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Garmil said:

 If you point the muzzle straight down vertically you can run around in any direction and not break the 180.

 

As I said, good luck keeping it from tilting 1 degree up toward horizontal (and getting an uprange DQ) while moving at even a walk.

 

Much less moving without getting a calf or foot in front of the muzzle and earning a trip to Dairy Queen for a different reason.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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I'm not saying it's a good thing to do. But the rules are always interpreted as literally as possible to avoid confusion.  Nothing written in the rules says its a dq from what I've read.

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Posted (edited)

Nearly all rulesets (99.999%), including outlaw, have a "180"-type rule. His muzzle may not have pointed uprange but, his muzzle was uprange of the 180° plane. Unless they were running without a 180 rule, I say, DQ! He should have been stopped IMMEDIATELY. All it would have taken is for him to trip and everyone uprange gets muzzled, at best. Worst case scenario, someone takes a shot to the face.

I used to run a local "outlaw" match. This would have been a DQ without question and the failure on the ROs part would have earned him a serious WTF talk.

Edited by PatriotMRD

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