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45acp for Metallic


want2race

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I'm thinking about building a 45acp for Metallic.  I haven't been around long enough to know "why" 9mm is king.  Recoil, drop at 50, mover event.  Anything else?  My 9mm is plenty accurate, with the right ammo is stupid soft, but I can't get the "bigger hole" out of my head.  Maybe I just want to do it, for the sake of doing it. 

 

I'm thinking 140-165gr projectiles at 900fps.  I like sintered metal projectiles for accuracy.  Anything else to consider?

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Rob Vadaz shoots 9mm metalic and he does very well too.  1918 in the World AP Match in New Zealand last November.  mIssed 1920 by less than 1/4"

 

Stay with 9mm

 

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Do the negatives you already mentioned offset a.049 inch edge in scoring? Those big 45 holes in the target sure look good but can you get the same accuracy out of those ultra light 45 bullets you can from the 9mm? If not and even if I think the negatives overcome the advantage.  I can't give a great explanation of how, but my experiments proved to me that higher velocity equals better scores on the longer portions of the mover even with a lead adjusting device.  

 

Edited by Ross Carter
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The velocities do not mean much of a difference in scoring if you have a properly adjusted mover base (bullet speed vs target speed).  The lead will be different for the different velocities but with a constant bullet speed and mover speed the accuracy is dependent on the shooter.  if you are shooting Metallic then you lead will be different but the accuracy will be still dependent on the shooter.

if you figure the 10" dia 10 scoring zone and the variance in bullet speed there is a wide range of velocities which still hit the 10 ring.  If placed in the center. you have 5" lag.

at 900 ft/s the lead is 10" at 1800 ft/s the lead is 5" at 25yds.  at 10 yds it is 4" and 2". 

 

Most shooters use 1150 ft/s 10yds 3.13" 15yds 4.7" 20 yds 6.26" and 25yds 7.83"

 

 

Edited by ffl
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My lead is built into the rear sight, but with my 9mm it's a bit less as I shoot 100gr at 1250.  I have the room in the rear sight to account for more lead (slower bullet) which is why I started to consider 45 again.  Thanks for posting the numbers ffl as it is definitely something to consider.  Also, bullet drop.

Rob missing 1920 by .25" is exactly why I'm considering 45.  I'm not quite at his level, soooo build a better mousetrap.  But is it?  That's why I posted here.  If I can build it to hold 2" at 50 (which is what I can do with my 9), and recoil wasn't a concern is there anything else to consider?  Before I sink of bunch of coin in a test bed, I'll source the projectiles I want to use and shoot them through a test fixture.  IF they perform well I may build it just to see.  I still have some time...

 

Barrel twist.  Thinking lighter, faster loads should I consider a 1:18 or 1:20?   

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You can shoot 2" at 50 with your 9mm now, but can you do it at Bianchi ? If not then spend the time and money on skills development and training. 9mm or 38 Super shoots flatter and softer than 45, so you get more time on the sights. The 5 and 6 second strings at 15 yards in Practical are challenging, but with a 45 and going prone added in...... Man!  It just does't need to be that complicated.

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In my post I'm not taking the amount of lead itself in consideration as that is taken care of by a lead adjuster. When I post a 49 thousands of an inch advantage with the 45 over the 9 that is if both shots hit the same place the outside of the 45 bullet would be 49 thousands of an inch closer to the center, maybe that's enough to touch the next scoring line. But bullet flight time does seem to make a difference on the mover both guns with mover adjustment, every thing else equal at least for me when back when I was shooting good, I was more consistent with higher velocity and often shots I called marginal were still good. Think of recoil this way, every bit of extra recoil gives you less time to aim, it may seem insignificant but it really adds up on the barricade. Also when you go to a larger bore at the same power factor the larger bore has more torque in your hand.  We are splitting hairs and I'm assuming you are looking for any small gain to make the difference between a winning score or not, at that level small differences add up.

 

In the end it's which pistol and load you shoot best and have confidence in. 

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All very good points.  I think the recoil difference maybe the nail in the coffin.

As much as I don't want it to be. 

 

I nearly won the Practical stage at Bianchi last year with a 478... turned into a 468 due to a skidder.  I took a picture of the target and it still haunts me.  The sight time during recoil recovery really makes sense since I lost it by .25 second.

 

Thank you guys for the discussion. 

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I say give it a shot. We talked about this on Rob's FB post with twist and stuff (Kyle). You mentioned a barrel fixture, do you have one? If you can get it so shoot 1/2-3/4" or so at 25yds from a fixture I say go for it. That'll be a 2"@50 barrel in the gun. Bullet diameter can help. I have shot a LOT of 8's that would've been 10's with a .45. I'd go straight to the 20-twist and 165's, get something with an XTP profile or wadcutter. I like outside the box thinking, keep it up. 

 

There's a reason benchrest Score shooters abandoned 6ppc for 30Major. They realized a slight decrease in accuracy was worth breaking more scoring rings.

Let's just go straight to 50GI?

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Many years ago, back in the mid '90's, there was an Austrian (European country, not the one down-under) shooter by the name of Peter Paul-Ploner, who was a 2 time winner of the European Bianchi Cup. He used a single stack 1911 in .45 (albeit in open) to pretty good effect. I think the bullet weights were somewhere around 155gn, but I've slept and drank since those days.

 

Back when things were good, we'd also started using 1911's in .45 for the PPC "distinguished" match (basically Match 5 of the course of fire). It was quite common to see guys getting sub 2" groups at 50 yards, so the accuracy's possible.

 

However, you say you've already got a 9mm, so I'd say rather than go through the expense and learning trying to get another gun to run how you'd like, put the time and money into your existing kit.  

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I will own up! I have shot Bianchi with a 45 and so did Munty. It was the 30 year Nostalgia match a few years ago and it was a hoot. Would I do it again? If I had a gun there to use and entered the Ironman but not as my primary gun.

   As a side note:- That was classed as a production match but single action 45 were allowed because that is what they shot "in the day". We were the only ones to use a 45 for the match (everyone else tried to game it with 9mm) and got our Production Classification shooting a 1911:P. Another downside is the empty cases hold a lot of heat for a long time when they bounce off your cap peek and go down the front of your shirt:o.

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This topic isn't dead!  Lol.  I'm going to order some 145gr bullets to test. I have a universal with test barrel but can also borrow an actual barrel fixture. I will go for 1:20.  More research on that before I order though.

 

Thanks for all the stories and stuff.

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last year I switched from a 6" les baer PII 45 to a custom 6" 9mm (build it myself) for PPC (actualy we only shoot match5), my average was about 10 points higher with the 9mm.

 

I have shot 590+ on training with the 9mm, did not even get close to that with the 45 wich I have for about 10 years. the 9 is more controlable for me.

 

but I build the 9 like I wanted it to be, 6" slide lightened to les than a 5" slide, bull barrel for the weight, long frame, aristocrat sights... actualy a bianchi gun :-) without a prone pad

 

 

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1 hour ago, stardust tommy said:

last year I switched from a 6" les baer PII 45 to a custom 6" 9mm (build it myself) for PPC (actualy we only shoot match5), my average was about 10 points higher with the 9mm.

 

I have shot 590+ on training with the 9mm, did not even get close to that with the 45 wich I have for about 10 years. the 9 is more controlable for me.

 

but I build the 9 like I wanted it to be, 6" slide lightened to les than a 5" slide, bull barrel for the weight, long frame, aristocrat sights... actualy a bianchi gun :-) without a prone pad

 

 

I just built the same gun lol.

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I will own up! I have shot Bianchi with a 45 and so did Munty. It was the 30 year Nostalgia match a few years ago and it was a hoot. Would I do it again? If I had a gun there to use and entered the Ironman but not as my primary gun.
   As a side note:- That was classed as a production match but single action 45 were allowed because that is what they shot "in the day". We were the only ones to use a 45 for the match (everyone else tried to game it with 9mm) and got our Production Classification shooting a 1911[emoji14]. Another downside is the empty cases hold a lot of heat for a long time when they bounce off your cap peek and go down the front of your shirt[emoji33].


That sounds like good fun (apart from the case down the shirt bit)!!

Another thing to put on the "to do" list...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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I can provide a 45 to you goldfieldshooter if you want to shoot 45 metallic again. This is my carry gun you might have to clean the rust off the tritium sites.  The gun I loaned to Karl is now Louis's backup gun. went from 45 ACP to 9MM. He won 1 world and 1 national Cup with that gun.  Now his girlfriend is shooting it.

 

 

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For anyone wanting to shoot Open with a .45 or .38 wadcutter, I now have new cams for Stick Shift that will give enough lead to work for a slower bullet. They will fit all Stick Shift products so you can change over an existing Stick Shift or Stick Shift Barricade Mount if desired.

Edited by Toolguy
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