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How far rearward can a holster be positioned?


JWBaldree

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Local match Sunday night, and a guy I don't recall seeing before steps up to the line with a holster at about 5 o'clock behind his right hip, kidney area, grip slanted forward 45 degrees, muzzle on the back pocket seam of his pants closets to his spine. Good CCW location unless you have to sit a lot.I asked if he is new to USPSA he said 'No'. I then told him I didn't think his holster position was legal or safe, and called the MD over to verify. 

 

The competitor stated that he had worn the holster in this position before, no problems. I pointed out that there is no way he could draw with out breaking the 180 or sweeping me. Competitor pointed out the muzzle within 3 feet of the body when holstered rule. Mkay, he is within that, but he will still be breaking the 180 and most likely sweeping me on the draw. End result, we asked him to relocate his holster.

 

I've been reviewing the rule book and can't find anything specific to rearward holster placement. Is there a rule I am missing, is this a 180 violation upon drawing, or am I just being paranoid and a range nazi?

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Please don't say range nazi. Being a stickler for the rules is a good thing. Nothing I found in the rule book says he can't have it back that far. But you can call a 180 if he breaks it on the draw. 

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17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Please don't say range nazi. Being a stickler for the rules is a good thing. Nothing I found in the rule book says he can't have it back that far. But you can call a 180 if he breaks it on the draw. 

He does get the three feet though

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19 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

 am I just being paranoid and a range nazi?

 

You're just wrong and overstepped your place, the nazi term is useful here.

 

The 3 feet rule is an approved exception to the 180 rule, and you assumed that that the shooter might sweep you. We don't need ROs trying to preemptively predict how a shooters run is going to go and assume that he's going to DQ before he actually does when he's well aware of how close he might be to the written limit while still kosher.

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20 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Being a stickler for the rules is a good thing. 

 

That's not what he did and he's well aware there's no rule violation here. He went beyond the rules and added his own personal stipulation to the competition because he thought the shooter might violate a rule in the future.

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15 minutes ago, JimmyBob said:

 

That's not what he did and he's well aware there's no rule violation here. He went beyond the rules and added his own personal stipulation to the competition because he thought the shooter might violate a rule in the future.

Actually wasn't aware that it wasn't a rule violation at the time, hence the reason I asked for a second opinion from the MD. Yes we knew about the three foot rule, but a MD also gets some say on unsafe equipment. I wasn't trying to be an ass, it's the first time this has ever come up in eight years of ROing. I was more worried about preemptively avoiding a DQ for the shooter, AND also the very high likely hood of being swept during his draw stroke.

 

As an analogy, it may be legal to stand on a train track and jump away at the last second as a train approaches at speed, but that doesn't mean I want to stand next to someone doing it. If the MD hadn't asked him to relocate the holster, I figure I would have simply but politely handed off the timer to someone else as it was past my comfort level. Try an "air draw" from the holster position I described and check the result.

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3 hours ago, JimmyBob said:

 

You're just wrong and overstepped your place, the nazi term is useful here.

 

The 3 feet rule is an approved exception to the 180 rule, and you assumed that that the shooter might sweep you. We don't need ROs trying to preemptively predict how a shooters run is going to go and assume that he's going to DQ before he actually does when he's well aware of how close he might be to the written limit while still kosher.

If the holster at waist level is canted 45 degrees -- I have a tough time visualizing how the competitor doesn't break the three foot radius from his feet.  I'd ask for a demonstration with a dry gun, and then make the call as to the applicability of the holster for the sport.

 

See Rules 5.2.6 and 5.2.7.3 before suggesting that the OP is overstepping his authority.  Note that under 5.2.6, even if the holster meets the three foot radius, an RM may still disallow the holster if he deems it to be unsafe, and if the holster can't be adjusted to his satisfaction.

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1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

Addressing a potential safety or equipment issue before the start signal is one sign of a good RO. When in doubt he kicked it up the chain for more guidance. 

 

Good job.

+1.  I'd much rather prevent a safety concern, than have to issue a DQ after the fact.

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It's probably best to read the rules (and the OP's post) carefully before accusing of personal motives.  He seemed to be trying to solve a somewhat unique problem, in good faith.  We appreciate his bringing it to our attention! 

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For some reason can't edit posts tonight. While a shooter gets 3 foot exemption on a draw he still would most likely break the 180 beyond 3 feet while drawing from near the small of the back. Maybe not but I doubt it. I would have to see how his draw goes. 

 Sure, it makes complete sense to try to avoid letting a shooter make a mistake. But sometimes they don't listen and as an RO at some point you have to Ween them off the tit.

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I would have to see the holster and its location.  He has a 3 foot radius from his feet for holstering and unholstering.  So if he can demonstrate good technique with an unloaded gun in the safety area, I would let it go.  I have seen several shooters use concealment holsters for competition who are good about keeping the gun tight to their body during the draw and when holstering.  It is how they train so they do not want to change to a different holster just for occasional competition.

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IMVHO:

The competitor has a 3 ft radius from his feet for holstering and unholstering.  If you are concerned, as you have a right to be, have the MD get involved as you have and in addition to that, have the shooter show you a draw in the safe area to check to make sure they(the shooter) will not sweep themselves or the RO. Have been doing this a very long time (1st match was in 1986), so I understand your concern. Sometimes you can only bring a horse to water, not make them drink.

Stay strong and thank you for your help on the range.

Mike

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