New 9mm Bolt with integrated gas key

[1911luvr]

Faxon just released an integrated BCG that solves the problem of sheared gas keys. I've experience a gas key shearing failure once already in less than 4k rounds, so I'm eyeing this intently.

$165

 
http://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-9mm-pcc-blowback-full-mass-bolt-carrier-group-complete-nitride//
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[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Look good to me. Not sure why you need a forward assist serrations though? Thanks, Eric

[1911luvr]

Hello: Look good to me. Not sure why you need a forward assist serrations though? Thanks, Eric

I was thinking the same thing


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[barrysuperhawk]

What? You can't use a 9mm bolt in an upper with a forward assist?  

[1911luvr]

What? You can't use a 9mm bolt in an upper with a forward assist?  

Sure you can, but why would you ever use it? Risk of damage or injury from forcing a non-feeding round into the chamber and firing it is much greater than any need to actually fire it.


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[barrysuperhawk]

Just now, 1911luvr said:

Sure you can, but why would you ever use it? Risk of damage or injury from forcing a non-feeding round into the chamber and firing it is much greater than any need to actually fire it.


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Ah, you must be the guy that cleans his guns after every trip to the range...lol...my BLOWBACK PCcarbines get DIRTEE, so I can appreciate being able to, er, encourage things in a pinch..  to each his own though.   

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I don't like the forward assists. Everytime I have seen someone use one it ends their stage soon after. Also it is just another thing that may go wrong. I'd rather just rack that one out and start again. Blowback PCC's do get dirty but a quick cleaning with a rag will clean it up and run a bore snake through it. Reoil it and you are ready to go. A lot easier than cleaning gas ports. Thanks, Eric

[barrysuperhawk]

Oh, I am not actually arguing the point, I was more just pointing out that some people may find it a handy feature, and it is much easier to ignore the cuts if you don't use them than it is to add them if you want them.  

I have had stages where the forward assist saved me from being unable to complete the course, and imho, slow and ugly is better than dnf...

[1911luvr]

Ah, you must be the guy that cleans his guns after every trip to the range...lol...my BLOWBACK PCcarbines get DIRTEE, so I can appreciate being able to, er, encourage things in a pinch..  to each his own though.   

You do understand that unlike a traditional AR with a locking bolt, these blowback guns are capable of firing slightly out of battery, and forcing a bulged, dirty, damaged or otherwise non-feeding round into the chamber is an excellent way to get a kaboom. That's a risk I'm not ok with.


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[1911luvr]

Oh, I am not actually arguing the point, I was more just pointing out that some people may find it a handy feature, and it is much easier to ignore the cuts if you don't use them than it is to add them if you want them.  
I have had stages where the forward assist saved me from being unable to complete the course, and imho, slow and ugly is better than dnf...

Was that in a blowback gun? I'm guessing not. I'd frankly rather have the dnf and my fingers.


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[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Everyone needs powder face every once in a while.  Just kidding. Thanks, Eric

[wgj3]

I actually talked to the guys at Spinta about doing this very thing just a few days ago after shearing off a 2nd gas key.

 

I think its brilliant! Whats the downside? A little more machining time? Anything else?

[Flatland Shooter]

I'm done buying anything for PCC for a while.  Tried to do it right and purchased spare parts for anything proprietary or remotely expendable.  Now have all the small parts to build two more PCC's.

 

Decided to take it one step further and bought a complete Spinta 9mm bolt as backup to my PSA bolt.

 

Right after buying the second bolt I find out folks are having problems with the gas key bolts shearing.

 

I'm done buying anything for PCC until the dust settles and we see what brands/parts are good for the long haul and which are not.

 

This is coming from a pre-XN MKA 1919 owner. (One broken part away from being a boat anchor.)

 

Bill

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I agree about getting the right parts to do the job correctly the first time. I am not sure why the bolt on the gas key are breaking for you guys. Could be poor quality bolt or over torquing them? Maybe buy some good grade bolts and torque them to specs. I have been running the KVP bolt and a JP bolt with no problems after 1000-1500 on each. The one piece bolt seems like a great idea to solve this problem. Thanks, Eric

[bmiller]

My original PSA bolt sheared the single bolt holding in the gas key. I sent it back and they sent me the new hybrid bolt that has 2 bolts. The extractor was soft garbage, but after I replaced that, it has ran great.  ( I really hate making statements like that!).  I have my pcc to the point I am satisfied with it, at least for the rest of this week. It is Friday.?

[TRUBL]

If it's there....they will use it

 

[Todd7446]

13 minutes ago, TRUBL said:

If it's there....they will use it

 

 

Good reason to buy a slick-side upper with no FA in it if using this bolt.

[Malarkey]

So is this the consensus? I'm building a PPC now and the BCG is the next purchase. 

[NoKimberDave]

8 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: I agree about getting the right parts to do the job correctly the first time. I am not sure why the bolt on the gas key are breaking for you guys. Could be poor quality bolt or over torquing them? Maybe buy some good grade bolts and torque them to specs. I have been running the KVP bolt and a JP bolt with no problems after 1000-1500 on each. The one piece bolt seems like a great idea to solve this problem. Thanks, Eric

 

1000-1500 rounds? About 3-4 range trips and/or matches.

 

So, I wouldn't bet the farm on reliability quite yet. Heh. 

[barrysuperhawk]

On 3/2/2017 at 3:59 PM, 1911luvr said:

You do understand that unlike a traditional AR with a locking bolt, these blowback guns are capable of firing slightly out of battery, and forcing a bulged, dirty, damaged or otherwise non-feeding round into the chamber is an excellent way to get a kaboom. That's a risk I'm not ok with.


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On 3/2/2017 at 4:02 PM, 1911luvr said:

Was that in a blowback gun? I'm guessing not. I'd frankly rather have the dnf and my fingers.


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Oh come on are you guys are saying that you could never smack the back of a slide to seat a pistol round that was slightly out of battery?  If anything the AR chamber and bolt setup is as strong or stronger than most pistols. And yes I'm sure it's possible to develop some overpressure but it is not nearly so serious as you're making it out to be. Especially if you're not even running major caliber rounds if you are just squeaking in above the bottom of minor power factor.. please don't go telling any of the nine millimeter major guys how impossibly unsafe every single one of their pistols are firing what amounts to almost proof loads at every shot.  People of Kaboom AR with full power 5.56 and even full power 308 rounds without losing any fingers or anything similar so to say that using a forward assist might possibly endanger one's fingers on a pistol caliber carbine is disingenuous at best.

[MikeRush]

34 minutes ago, barrysuperhawk said:

If anything the AR chamber and bolt setup is as strong or stronger than most pistols. 

 

I agree with you on this point. The difference is we aren't talking about an AR chamber and bolt. There are no locking lugs as these are straight blowback. Also, unlike a standard AR bolt where the firing pin can't reach the primer unless the bolt is in the locked position the blowback ARs will fire out of battery. You could have over 30k psi supported by nothing but the brass.

 

I've seen enough blood on multiple occasions from out of battery ignition that I wouldn't do it. If you want to that's cool but think about who might be to the right of you. For me, as a right handed shooter an OOB incident would likely spit brass at the RO. It might be worth it to you, but personally I'll just get the defective round out and keep shooting. 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: After seeing a out of battery PCC last night throwing the magazine to the ground. If the forward assist was being pushed I am sure it would bend or break the upper receiver as well. I still think if it does not go in get it out of there instead of jamming it into the chamber. Thanks, Eric

[1911luvr]

 
The difference is we aren't talking about an AR chamber and bolt. There are no locking lugs as these are straight blowback. Also, unlike a standard AR bolt where the firing pin can't reach the primer unless the bolt is in the locked position the blowback ARs will fire out of battery. You could have over 30k psi supported by nothing but the brass.

Exactly!


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[Hallz]

I have seen no problems yet with JP set ups.

 

I have put together quite a few uppers now with JP barrel, silent capture spring bolts and quality forged upper receiver. No issues with any of them. I have also seen quite a few other set ups fixed with just swaping in a JP bolt and Silent Capture system.

 

Mixing and matching various parts trying to keep cost down and/or reading what somone else used can end up costing you more in the long run and a lot of frustration.

 

Build it right the first time with a proven system, quality components and good tech support.

[barrysuperhawk]

19 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: After seeing a out of battery PCC last night throwing the magazine to the ground. If the forward assist was being pushed I am sure it would bend or break the upper receiver as well. I still think if it does not go in get it out of there instead of jamming it into the chamber. Thanks, Eric

 

 

Ok, I really was not trying to pick a fight on this, and I apologize for derailing the thread, but I really dislike it when FUD is spread (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) via "what if" that when examined, are at best wildly unlikely or at worst outright false.  We can "what if" until doomsday and there will always be a possibility of something bad happening, especially if your "what if" scenario includes the worst possible thing that could happen and portrays it as the only logical outcome.  I am quite sure if anyone lost fingers or other body parts in the incident, you would have told us.  

 

What seems to be being missed is that blowback guns do not need locking lugs to contain the explosion that occurs when you pull the trigger because they rely upon mass and spring pressure to stay in battery.  if a blowback gun fires out of battery, that mass and spring pressure do not magically go away, they still exist.  The pressure may bulge or blow out a section of the brass, and in the case of a blowout, the pressure exits the receiver along the path of least resistance, which in most guns, is down through the magazine.

 

I too have seem my share of kabooms, both as an RO and when I was first beginning reloading, I blew the grips off a 1911 with what I presume was a double charge.  I have  kaboomed an AR pattern .308 rifle with an overpressure factory round (new bolt guts and extractor and I was back in business.) .  While RO'ing I have seem 3 glocks, an STI, a M1A, and AR-10, and several ARs go boom, mostly due to squibs (except the Glocks, I blame .40 for those, because, well, .40).  I have about a 75% lifetime squib "save" rate overall (manage to get the competitor stopped before they pull the trigger) so I have a fair bit of experience in this.  There has been blood and/or shrapnel involved in about a third of these incidents, but no fingers/eyes or other body parts were lost.  Most of the rifles were salvageable, and only a couple sustained damage that could not be repaired.  Kabooms suck, but they do not happen as often or as easily as you are implying, and are not the "fault" of a forward assist.

 

damn, I did it again.  Sorry.  I really don't mean to derail this thread, it looks like a fine bolt, and now I have to go buy one because I can't keep my mouth shut...