B_RAD

ESP legal?

73 posts in this topic

How is this not legal and the G34 would be?

 

Specifically asking about the slide cutouts.

 

 

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Edited by B_RAD

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to me that should be legal. I believe at one point there was a ruling that one of the smith pro series 1911's was legal because the slide cut outs came on it from the factory. So, a STI with cut outs should be legal to shouldn't it?

 

But, it's IDPA should it make sense?

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Not trying to be rude or negative against IDPA.  Just wondering. I had someone tell me on another forum they shot this gun at nationals but also had someone very reputable tell me it's not legal because of 8.2.2.3. 

 

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This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

Edited by v1911

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If they are going to allow DVC's they should just allow slide cuts.

 

I have a gun that a lot of people ask me if it's a DVC, but it's not. Because it's not factory it's not a IDPA legal gun. But functionally there is no real difference in my gun and a DVC I just spent less money.

 

Maybe I should buy a DVC just to troll my local IDPA.....hmmm

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1 hour ago, v1911 said:

This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

Well, I'll admit I got my guns confused. Ha.  I have the DVC 3gun.  I apologize for the discrepancy in my information.  The point was about the slide cuts. The gun I was told about did make weight, and it fit in the box.

 

The only questionable issue is specifically about the factory cutouts being a non-permitted feature per 8.2.2.3. I asked HQ and was told no. Then 8.2.2.3 was quoted.  

 

They may need to update that rule. It does say features. Not just modifications.   

 

 

Edited by B_RAD

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1 hour ago, v1911 said:

This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

Also, I just checked, it was me an you discussing this on the other forum.  We were talking about my 3gun. 

Edited by B_RAD

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So let me get this straight.

 

Your DVC 3gun is not legal? And who exactly from IDPA informed you of this?

 

I ask so that I can reference your answer with my AC. 

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.

Edited by kells81
not ssp my bad

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You're referring to rule 8.2.1a. That doesn't apply to ESP, only SSP. 

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Your right,  I was thinking it was higher up in the overall rules not just in the SSP section.  I.E. up in the 8.1.? area   

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I thought the bull barrel is a no go in esp. Edit...bc barrel is less than 4.2 inches a bull barrel is OK.

 

 

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Looks legal for ESP to me.

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So does that mean the CK Thunder slide would also be legal since it comes that way from the factory?

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34 minutes ago, JRM83 said:

So does that mean the CK Thunder slide would also be legal since it comes that way from the factory?

 

I think that gun has a 5" Bull Barrel, so no it's not legal.

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On 2/24/2017 at 2:08 PM, v1911 said:

This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

 

How did he go about making it fit the box?  Did he just take off the magwell or was there more that needed to be done?

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3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think that gun has a 5" Bull Barrel, so no it's not legal.

 

You can have them make it with a bushing barrel. 

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It's a valid question. I'd try to get a ruling from them on it.

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

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On second read, I think 8.2.2.3 applies in that case (and to the DVC 3 gun)

 

8.2.2.3 ESP Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): A. Removal of material from the exterior of the slide other than front cocking serrations, tri-top, engraving, carry melts, and high power cuts.

 

It specifies excluded FEATURES and modifications. I don't know if the through cuts on the Thunder or DVC are going to be considered "front cocking serrations".

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Posted (edited)

On 3/17/2017 at 6:41 PM, JRM83 said:

On second read, I think 8.2.2.3 applies in that case (and to the DVC 3 gun)

 

8.2.2.3 ESP Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): A. Removal of material from the exterior of the slide other than front cocking serrations, tri-top, engraving, carry melts, and high power cuts.

 

It specifies excluded FEATURES and modifications. I don't know if the through cuts on the Thunder or DVC are going to be considered "front cocking serrations".

As far as the DVC is concerned;

You aren't removing or adding anything to the gun. It comes from the factory that way. Just as the S&W Pro series guns have factory slide cuts that are legal. No different than running a Glock 34 in ESP with that huge coffin cut on top. I've already spoken to my AC about this.

 

The guy who I know that ran a DVC 3Gun at nationals had to shave down his beavertail to make the gun fit the box. It comes with a tactical magwell and that already fits the box, check. The slide cuts are factory, so that's a non-issue, check. It's a bushing barrel gun, check. Makes weight, check. All he had to do was totally bubba smith the beavertail. And it truly looked awful. Like I wanted to take his gun and whip him with it, ugly.

Edited by v1911

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26 minutes ago, v1911 said:

As far as the DVC is concerned;

You aren't removing or adding anything to the gun. It comes from the factory that way. Just as the S&W Pro series guns have factory slide cuts that are legal. No different than running a Glock 34 in ESP with that huge coffin cut on top. I've already spoken to my AC about this.

 

The guy who I know that ran a DVC 3Gun at nationals had to shave down his beavertail to make the gun fit the box. It comes with a tactical magwell and that already fits the box, check. The slide cuts are factory, so that's a non-issue, check. It's a bushing barrel gun, check. Makes weight, check. All he had to do was totally bubba smith the beavertail. And it truly looked awful. Like I wanted to take his gun and whip him with it, ugly.

 

8.2.2.3 doesn't just cover modifications, it covers excluded features as well. As I am reading that rule it means that even if that gun has the feature from the factory it is still an excluded feature. The Glock 34 makes into ESP because of the SSP to ESP rule. Every gun that is SSP legal is also ESP legal. I'm not sure what pro series S&W you are talking about - the m&p? If so that makes it into ESP the same way. If that DVC 3 gun was legal then someone must have decided that the cuts on the DVC fell into the category of front cocking serrations.

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there is no more ssp into esp wording.

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Posted (edited)

These 2 guns are ESP legal. The 1911 needs no modification to shoot, the M&P needs a non-ported barrel.

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Edited by v1911

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It's leagal. It's the same as a glock 34. 

 

End of discussion.  

 

On another note, the Accu Shadow is also now legal (ESP). 

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But, if the dvc is legal is a 1911 with similar cuts legal? And why or why or why not?

 

Just because that 1911 was legal doesn't mean its legal now, it is a new rulebook.

 

The wording "feature" can cover a lot. To me feature should mean no DVC. If there is no SSP to esp, that should mean no G34. I'm sure that wasn't there intent, but that if that's what the book says that should be the rule.

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