'Coke' bottle cases 9mm

[js1130146]

Is there a pattern to the failures? Are they the same headstamp? Are all the failures loaded into that cannelure type case?

 

That looks to me like it's seated too deep and the case cannelure is causing an issue.

Edited February 18, 2017 by js1130146

[Steve RA]

I think your problem is that the base of the bullet appears to be below the cannelure which causes the case to expand more as it begins to thicken in that area.

 

Put a bullet next to one of those and see where the base is by putting the nose of the cartridge and the bare bullet against something so the tips are equal.  The cartridges appear that they would be (wasp waisted/coke bottle) if the bullet were not seated so deeply.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Steve RA
misspelling

[muncie21]

I will seat the same bullet in the same brand (type) brass using my Lee dies and post up the results and measurements.  I've seen this (cannelure) type case before when loading and am 98% sure that it loaded fine with the 147g bullet, however I'll do a quick test to confirm this.

 

BTW, the 147g bullet needs this seating depth to pass the plunk/spin test on the CZ barrel that I test it with.  The Cz has a much shorter lead-in than the glocks that I've measured.

 

 

 

 

 

[MikieM]

7 hours ago, js1130146 said:

In my experience standard Lee dies size tighter and farther down the case than other brands. They also make the U-die for EGW as well as their own. Bullet setback and reliability woes are a non-issue for me loading 9 major. 

 

Sizing tighter is not necessarily a consideration. Quality dies size correctly.

I haven't had a setback in over 35 years, unless of course, you count a divorce. 

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, MikieM said:

 

Sizing tighter is not necessarily a consideration. Quality dies size correctly.

 

Thats not entirely true unless I have a bad Dillon die. It depends on the brass more than the die. Not all case walls are the same thickness so they all size a little differently on the inside. I still remember a guy on here swearing he never had setback only to actually test some of the thinner case wall headstamps he had loaded. I think his response was, "Huh, I'll be damned, I do get setback". 

My LEE and EGW die are very very good dies. Much better than the Dillon set I have.

[hax]

Deleted sorry

[hax]

Sorry

[MikieM]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Thats not entirely true unless I have a bad Dillon die. It depends on the brass more than the die. Not all case walls are the same thickness so they all size a little differently on the inside. I still remember a guy on here swearing he never had setback only to actually test some of the thinner case wall headstamps he had loaded. I think his response was, "Huh, I'll be damned, I do get setback". 

My LEE and EGW die are very very good dies. Much better than the Dillon set I have.

 

I won't argue with that but other factors enter into what we see as bullet 'setback'.

If the sizing die is doing it's job then the reloader may need to look elsewhere. In the case where the expander die is included with the powder drop; i.e.. Dillon, the problem can come from there. The reloader must eliminate the variables.

As to the 'coke bottle' effect encountered by the OP, It has caused no problems for me.

Edited February 18, 2017 by MikieM

[Turtle]

Muncie, when adjusting the crimp die, it's important to take measurements. You want to have between 1 and 2 thousandths of crimp (as measured at the mouth of the case). I could see with the naked eye that some yours were off...

Some 9mm cases get a bulge at the web in the firing process that the size die can't remove. These would require a pass through/roller resize in order to restore them perfectly to factory specs. So, a certain % of failures is not out of the ordinary...

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[texasref]

A few thoughts which some I'm sure will disagree.

The "bottle effect" in most guns has very little to do with chambering, except in CZ's. They are known for tight tolerances. To that end, case gauging is fine but barrel testing is better.

Measure the crimp and make sure your not too tight. If you started to see brass specs that's where it's coming from. A factory diameter crimp should tension the bullet in the case neck enough to prevent "setback". Load a dummy round. Take a pair of channel locks and try to seat the bullet deeper by hand. If your crimping correctly it won't move.

Also take note of the diameter of the bullets. BlueBullets 9mm are swaged to 0.355" which will eliminate the "bottle".

 

In your last post the picture looks like the case is collapsing. (Could be shadows) Make sure your dies and shell plate are lined up. Also make sure your running the sizing die all the way down.

[muncie21]

I changed out the Dillon sizing die (left everything else the same) with a Lee and ran a few hundred (147g) rounds off this morning.  All rounds passed the case gauge and barrel plunk/spin. 

 

My humble opinion is that the Dillon sizing die was a bit too aggressive for the 147g bullets.  Sure 90% of the rounds were fine, but the remaining 10% had to be run through the Lee FCD to make them usable.  Could also be my lack of experience adjusting this particular die/bullet combination.  The 135 and 124 bullets, while exhibiting more 'coke bottle' when run through the Dillon dies, functioned as well the the rounds made with the Lee dies. 

 

I will still run the  Dillon dies (they are perfectly fine tools) however just not with the 147 bullet.

[mjohn]

1 hour ago, muncie21 said:

I changed out the Dillon sizing die (left everything else the same) with a Lee and ran a few hundred (147g) rounds off this morning.  All rounds passed the case gauge and barrel plunk/spin. 

 

My humble opinion is that the Dillon sizing die was a bit too aggressive for the 147g bullets.  Sure 90% of the rounds were fine, but the remaining 10% had to be run through the Lee FCD to make them usable.  Could also be my lack of experience adjusting this particular die/bullet combination.  The 135 and 124 bullets, while exhibiting more 'coke bottle' when run through the Dillon dies, functioned as well the the rounds made with the Lee dies. 

 

I will still run the  Dillon dies (they are perfectly fine tools) however just not with the 147 bullet.

I am using Dillon dies and Zero 147 FMJ and all is semi well.  I sort brass and only use USA made range pickup brass.  I have had seating problems in the past (bullet will not case gauge) and so therefore I have had success with USA manufactured brass and that is what I use.

[CZinZA]

Just something to consider. ...

If your crimp die is slightly too tight, the case wall grabs the bullet firmly before it has completely seated. As the case continues to rise in the die, the bullet can't move further into the case, so the case walls buckle under the strain. You end up with a ridge (or two) partway down the case.

Simply backing out the crimp die a fraction of a turn will fix the problem

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[GregJ]

43 minutes ago, mjohn said:

...  I have had seating problems in the past (bullet will not case gauge) and so therefore I have had success with USA manufactured brass and that is what I use.

 

I had hell getting my new 1050 to Load rounds that consistently gaged. After I sharpied the failures, I saw the bullet was interfering. Loaded shorter fixed it.   Discovered EGW was tighter than Barstow chamber, or Wilson gage, and Shockbottle was "looser" than all nor does it check OAL.  Just a thought for you.

 

[Service Desk]

On 17/02/2017 at 2:19 PM, Sarge said:

LUBE the cases. Makes things much easier , makes better ammo, and is just better all around. Most folks I know do not load without lube.

Some DCL or Oneshot makes a world of difference, the reduction in effort and increase in operational smoothness is amazing.

[M1A4ME]

I've read a theory (on another forum) that the Lee carbide dies may not have the taper that other companies use in the carbide ring (cost savings measure).  The theory further stated that if the inside of the carbide ring was not tapered, but straight, then in order to resize the top of the case to the correct diameter the bottom of the case would be smaller than it would have been originally.  That would result in a bottle necked looking cartridge once the bullet is seated (aggravated by the use of somewhat larger diameter bullets, of course).

 

Can't say that theory is correct, or not, I can say that with my new RCBS dies I don't see the bottle neck look like I did with the Lee dies.  Yes, the Lee dies made good shooting (functioning/accurate) reloads but what about the possibility of overworking the brass by sizing is smaller than needed and then blowing it back out when the cartridge is fired?  Maybe not an issue with 9MM like it could be with higher pressure.

 

The point, made in another post above, about alignment, is a good one.  Sometimes I'd see a 9MM case when a lip of brass rolled off the surface and pushed down the side to the point where the bottom of the die stopped on the case.  A time or two I tossed brass in the scrap brass can because it was damaged so bad.  I was using an RCBS single stage press, Lee die, and an RCBS shell holder.  I wondered if there was an alignment issue, due to the mismatched components, or even an incorrectly made shell holder, press wear (pretty old press) but the damaged cases were only seen every few hundred resizings, so it could have been screwy brass, too.

 

Anyway, now I'm running the RCBS carbide die set and I'm happy with the results in my CZ pistols.  If the reloads work in the CZ they'll work in the safe queens (XDM, M&P and Browning 9MM semi-autos that don't give me the groups/reliability the CZ's give me.)

[Steve RA]

On a fairly small carbide ring, as most dies seem to have, I can't see how taper of the ring would do much as the ring goes from the top of the case to near the bottom when sizing.  Only way a tapered ring would work would be for it to equal the height of the case.

[TANFARM]

My experience...I seemed to have run into a large batch of Bad 9mm brass I got from a friend. I was having an abnormal amount of rejects when case gauging. I case gauge every round I load...I know. 

Someone here suggested the EGW U-die...bought it, installed it , used it ....The good....3800 rounds loaded last weekend 15 rejects...amazing. The bad..I had to start case lubing my brass.. Tried some Diilon lube I had sitting around for rifle and it was an awful mess..I used way to much lube. Switched to One Shot , followed direction exactly as advised, love this stuff. Press runs much smoother...so maybe the lube thing turned out to be a good thing !

[Tom S.]

Lubing is a must, even with carbide dies.  Most manufacturers will even tell you so.  The purpose of carbide wasn't to eliminate lubing, it was to eliminate scratching/scaring the dies. Can you run without lube? Sure.  You can also run your car a quart low on oil, drive on under inflated tires and go out in the sun without sun glasses.