muncie21 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I've loaded a few thousand 9mm on my Dillon 650 using Lee dies and the Dillon powder drop/expander. Except for the brass 'powder/flakes' on my shell plate these cartridges loaded and shot fine. So...I picked up a second toolhead that I loaded with all Dillon brand dies. The cartridges from these dies have a very pronounced 'coke' bottle shape. I.E. the end of the cartridge where the bullet is inserted is larger in diameter than the middle of the cartridge. Now I've read that this is perfectly normal, however many (10% or so) are failing the Dillon case gauge check, a smaller percent fail the CG, but plunk/spin OK, so my barrel is a bit more forgiving than my case gauge. Looking for suggestions on which die to adjust and in which direction. My first instinct was to tighten the crimping die as the issue appears to be too large diameter at the bullet crimp/roll, however tightening this up didn't appear to help much...keep in mind that only 10% or so fail, so I'd have to run quite a few to accurately assess the impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexcue Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 For me, this isn't the fault of the die. It's the fault of the brass. I saw your post in another forum BTW. Whether they have a coke bottle or not in my case doesn't matter since I use mixed brass and some range pickup. So all my brass goes through a chamber checker. The ones that fail go through a bulge buster and voila! all is good. What's interesting is, the ones that go through the chamber checker and are shot through my guns only (no range pickup) don't have an issue from this point on. For 9mm I use the Lee 9mm Mak FCD, and it works perfectly. Don't forget the 9mm Luger is tapered, so the 9mm Luger FCD will not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I think the "wasp waisted" appearance is good as it prevents any bullet setback in the cartridge. It will appear more readily if you are using a bullet larger than .355. Should not have any effect on feeding ammunition. My 9mm loads all look like that as I use .358 diameter LSWC bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikieM Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 9 hours ago, muncie21 said: I've loaded a few thousand 9mm on my Dillon 650 using Lee dies and the Dillon powder drop/expander. Except for the brass 'powder/flakes' on my shell plate these cartridges loaded and shot fine. So...I picked up a second toolhead that I loaded with all Dillon brand dies. The cartridges from these dies have a very pronounced 'coke' bottle shape. I.E. the end of the cartridge where the bullet is inserted is larger in diameter than the middle of the cartridge. Now I've read that this is perfectly normal, however many (10% or so) are failing the Dillon case gauge check, a smaller percent fail the CG, but plunk/spin OK, so my barrel is a bit more forgiving than my case gauge. Looking for suggestions on which die to adjust and in which direction. My first instinct was to tighten the crimping die as the issue appears to be too large diameter at the bullet crimp/roll, however tightening this up didn't appear to help much...keep in mind that only 10% or so fail, so I'd have to run quite a few to accurately assess the impact. The tech at Dillon Precision said the 'coke bottle' effect is perfectly normal and won't hurt a thing. If you do not want that shape then do what I did. Buy a set of Redding Pro dies. The little specks of brass are probably coming from your crimp die. You might try re-adjusting the powder funnel for a little less bell at the case mouth. It worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Steve RA said: I think the "wasp waisted" appearance is good as it prevents any bullet setback in the cartridge. It will appear more readily if you are using a bullet larger than .355. Should not have any effect on feeding ammunition. My 9mm loads all look like that as I use .358 diameter LSWC bullets. Absolutely. My first guess would be that big mouth Dillon die is not sizing low enough like the great LEE sizer does. Try to turn it down just a hair and see if the pass plunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 I think I'm starting to get used to the adjustments needed for the dillon dies. I loaded up some more cartridges tonight which turned out much better than the previous sessions. I backed the sizing die off a little bit (to limit how far down the die 'under sizes' the case) and increased the bell just a tad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanMan1961 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 it's because the 9mm case is actually slightly tapered, but the Dillon die resizes the case walls parallel. Other dies like the Lee Factory Crimp dies set resizes the case walls to a proper taper. That's brass processed with the Dillon dies on the bottom, Lee dies on top. I have gone through 30k+ rounds processed with Dillon dies in my semi-autos without a problem. I only switched to using the Lee FC die set for loading for my S&W 929 revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 If it's not passing chamber check how does it fail. Doesn't fully seat? Is it a sizing die issue? There's no reason you can't get almost 100 percent pass rates. You've got something that needs tweaked. I'd spend less time worrying about the coke shape and more about the sizing seat and crimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 it's the Dillon 9mm sizing die causing this coke bottle shape. van man explained it well. it's generally not an issue in practice but I prefer the lee sizing die particularly in 9mm. you can keep all the other dies and just buy a lee 9mm sizer/decapper and it will go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A4ME Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I have the regular Lee 9MM set with the carbide sizing die. Resizing was extremely hard (more effort required than resizing military 7.62X51 brass) and the reloads had that same coke bottle shape in your picture. I bought a set of RCBS 9MM dies with the carbide sizing die and no more blisters on the fingers, no more sore fingers/hands and no more coke bottle shaped reloads - but they still chamber/fire/eject just fine in my CZ pistols. Different dies. are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Here's the Lee and Dillon cartridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 hours ago, VanMan1961 said: it's because the 9mm case is actually slightly tapered, but the Dillon die resizes the case walls parallel. Other dies like the Lee Factory Crimp dies set resizes the case walls to a proper taper. That's brass processed with the Dillon dies on the bottom, Lee dies on top. I have gone through 30k+ rounds processed with Dillon dies in my semi-autos without a problem. I only switched to using the Lee FC die set for loading for my S&W 929 revolvers. I would put a touch more crimp on the bottom rounds personally. I swear I can see belling still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 hours ago, M1A4ME said: I have the regular Lee 9MM set with the carbide sizing die. Resizing was extremely hard (more effort required than resizing military 7.62X51 brass) and the reloads had that same coke bottle shape in your picture. I bought a set of RCBS 9MM dies with the carbide sizing die and no more blisters on the fingers, no more sore fingers/hands and no more coke bottle shaped reloads - but they still chamber/fire/eject just fine in my CZ pistols. Different dies. are different. LUBE the cases. Makes things much easier , makes better ammo, and is just better all around. Most folks I know do not load without lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 8 hours ago, Sarge said: I would put a touch more crimp on the bottom rounds personally. I swear I can see belling still. Agreed. I like to see a slight ring around the case mouth, like the top round. This way I know the taper crimp die is working. Plus I am very anal about measuring my rounds, OAL, crimp, and primer seating. The bottom round doesnt look like the TC die even touched the case mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1A4ME Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I just don't lube carbide dies. Not .40, not .45 acp, not .357 or .44 and I'm not lubing 9MM. Lube is for non-carbide dies. That's why I paid more money for carbide dies - so I wouldn't have to lube the cases and then take the lube off. My new RCBS dies resize the 9MM brass with much less effort required. Some folks bad mouth RCBS dies but mine are working great, so far. The Lee dies go back on the shelf for back up duty. If some folks want to lube brass sized in carbide dies that's fine. I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikieM Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 2 hours ago, M1A4ME said: I just don't lube carbide dies. Not .40, not .45 acp, not .357 or .44 and I'm not lubing 9MM. Lube is for non-carbide dies. That's why I paid more money for carbide dies - so I wouldn't have to lube the cases and then take the lube off. My new RCBS dies resize the 9MM brass with much less effort required. Some folks bad mouth RCBS dies but mine are working great, so far. The Lee dies go back on the shelf for back up duty. If some folks want to lube brass sized in carbide dies that's fine. I'm not. You and me, both. If you're getting too much resistance from resizing you probably need to realign your die set to the tool head. I prefer a bit of resistance in resizing, myself. Let's me know it's working. The only reason I can think of why people would buy Lee dies is the price. Redding is far superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed it by that much Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 LUBE the cases. Makes things much easier , makes better ammo, and is just better all around. Most folks I know do not load without lube.+1 lube works wonders on 9 mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicoR Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I don't get that coke-bottle effect using Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension dies... not even with .356 plated bullets! And they chamber flawlessly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The coke bottle should not cause it to fail case gauge though. How many people are using this Dillon dies to load thousands of rounds on it without issue? can you show us a picture of a round that fails to case gauge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRJ Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The case gage test fail is probably due to the case head being out of round. The only tool that will really fix this is a case pro. But I have had good luck with Lee depriming dies that are adjusted to touch the shell plate when resizing. This will not get rid of the hour glass shape but pretty much all loaded rounds will fit into a gage. Also watch out for open 9mm major brass that guys are loading now. I can usually tell by the more than normal flattened primer and case head. Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
js1130146 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 3 hours ago, MikieM said: The only reason I can think of why people would buy Lee dies is the price. Redding is far superior. In my experience standard Lee dies size tighter and farther down the case than other brands. They also make the U-die for EGW as well as their own. Bullet setback and reliability woes are a non-issue for me loading 9 major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Nathanb said: The coke bottle should not cause it to fail case gauge though. How many people are using this Dillon dies to load thousands of rounds on it without issue? can you show us a picture of a round that fails to case gauge I'll find one to take a picture of. The ones that fail are typically too large in diameter at the case mouth. I've measured these and they are 0.385 or a tad higher. The part that's perplexing is the failures could be in the middle of 20-30 good cartridges with no adjustments. Now I do use mixed brass and don't measure each and every bullet. With the Lee FCD, I'm guessing these 'outliers' were smoothed out, so component size variation could have been occurring the entire time and only showed up now because the FCD may have masked the problem. Anyhow, I chrono'd about 100 of these rounds today and they ran smoothly and were very consistent, so it seems the 'coke bottle' doesn't impact fit or function. Created: 02/17/17 13:02Description: Bayou 124 TCGNotes 1: 3.6 PVNotes 2: CZDistance to Chrono(FT): 5.00Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000Bullet Weight(gr): 124.00Temp: 47 °FBP: 29.83 inHgAltitude: 0.00# FPS FT-LBS PF15 1011 281.47 125.3614 1014 283.15 125.7413 1030 292.15 127.7212 1016 284.27 125.9811 1017 284.83 126.1110 1011 281.47 125.369 1015 283.71 125.868 1016 284.27 125.987 997 273.73 123.636 1017 284.83 126.115 1022 287.63 126.734 1013 282.59 125.613 1010 280.92 125.242 1015 283.71 125.861 1006 278.70 124.74Average: 1014.0 FPSSD: 7.3 FPSMin: 997 FPSMax: 1030 FPSSpread: 33 FPS P.S. I know that I need to bump up my powder through a scosche. Edited February 17, 2017 by muncie21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Are you short stroking the crimp station? The bullet is only .356 and your brass isn't that thick. It sounds like you're not getting a full crimp and could be a short stroke. I had a lot of issues when I first started because I was not full stroking. What happens if if you run them through a crimp again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I use Dillon dies in both my old 550 and Square Deal. They don't look like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Here are some pictures of a cartridge that fails the case gauge, however OAL and neck measurements show it to be within spec. This is a 147 FP coated BBI bullet. I've got the 135 bullets dialed in pretty good, but the 147 is still giving me issues. Most cartridges that fail the CG will pass once they go through the Lee FCD on my other tool head. It is almost always due to diameter being too large at the case mouth. BTW, these same bullets (and same mixed brass) run well through the Lee dies. I'm not pointing fingers at Dillon, as I made a conscious decision to purchase that press over the others, however these are just facts...not alternative ones either mind you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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