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SCSA Rules - Edge Hits


ZackJones

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What I meant is that you protest it after the string is shot, but some ROs don't go down until you finish shooting all five strings. While some will go down immediately. Either way it doesn't add that much time because it typically doesn't happen all that many times in a match.

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19 hours ago, PPGMD said:

What I meant is that you protest it after the string is shot, but some ROs don't go down until you finish shooting all five strings. While some will go down immediately. Either way it doesn't add that much time because it typically doesn't happen all that many times in a match.

 

How can the RO make a call on a hit or not prior to any further hits on the target without...actually going down to look at the target prior to any further hits on the target?  :)

 

 

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Simple Thomas.  You go down after the competitor is done and examine the target in question.  If there are five marks, there were no misses.  If not, there were.

Edited by zzt
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50 minutes ago, zzt said:

Simple Thomas.  You go down after the competitor is done and examine the target in question.  If there are five marks, there were no misses.  If not, there were.

Yes and no.  The rules do state that it has to be checked before the next string.  The reason for this is that it's possible that a second shot might be shot atop a previous hit and only seen as a single splatter.  Can you usually tell by carefully examining the splatter?  Yes.  But checking before the next string removes doubt.  Also, a shooter can throw extra shots on the plate in a later run that an unaware RO may not notice, thus hiding a missing shot.  If an RO is doing his job then it's a nonissue, but by requiring a check before the next string, all doubt is removed.  

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49 minutes ago, Scootertheshooter said:

What if the RO doesn't tell you that you had a miss after a string was shot? I've never shot the nationals but state matches and discovered after that the RO gave me a miss that I thought I hit .

Interesting point.  Should the rules state that a miss must be clearly stated to the shooter before the start of the next string in order to ensure the shooter the opportunity to challenge the miss?

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Yes. The RO should inform the competitor after any string in which there is a called miss. If he doesn't then how is the competitor supposed to know he can challenge the call? It is worded as such in the draft revision and I will instruct ROs at Nats according.

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On 2/14/2017 at 8:46 PM, PPGMD said:

Sometimes they do it mid-string, depends on the RO. But most times you put a pin in it until the shooter finishes their five strings.

 

It doesn't add that much time as it is while they are already painting the stage. And I don't think I've seen it happen more than a couple of times per a match.

 

This is against the rules. If the RO awards a miss to the shooter he must tell the shooter immediately so the shooter has the right to protest. It must be checked then before another shot is fired.....Because once more shots are fired you can not tell which one is what. 

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18 hours ago, Scootertheshooter said:

What if the RO doesn't tell you that you had a miss after a string was shot? I've never shot the nationals but state matches and discovered after that the RO gave me a miss that I thought I hit .

 

If an RO fails to notify the shooter of a miss before the next string is fired then he can't give the miss.   Because you never gave the shooter the ability to prove otherwise. The shooter always has the right to protest a call.

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If an RO fails to notify the shooter of a miss before the next string is fired then he can't give the miss.   Because you never gave the shooter the ability to prove otherwise. The shooter always has the right to protest a call.


Zach said he was going to rectify this by informing the RO's . This has happened to me and many other shooters I've spoke to. I agree I want to be informed of a miss because it does dictate your future strings on that stage . Folks have been surprised to see a miss on a stage on the final results .
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Edge hits have always counted, and should. You really need to talk to some of the shooters that were around in the late 80's and early 90's. Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham, Bruce Piatt.....Back when we still had beer companies interested in sponsoring....IE the Miller Invitational

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On 2/16/2017 at 3:42 PM, zzt said:

Simple Thomas.  You go down after the competitor is done and examine the target in question.  If there are five marks, there were no misses.  If not, there were.

 

And people have said---this doesn't work.  People shoot targets twice (or more)---or sometimes they have misses on multiple strings.  The count of hits on the target at the end of all strings of fire isn't as relevant as you might think.  Unless, of course, the shooter shot exactly 5 shots per string for all 5 strings--and most people don't do it that way.

 

Most importantly, the current rules say: 

6.3.1 When a Range Official scores a miss, it is the shooter’s responsibility to appeal the decision at the end of that particular string. The Range Official will go downrange to inspect the target.
6.3.2 If the bullet has left a clear mark on the edge or face of the plate, it will be scored as a hit. If there is no discernible mark, it will be scored as a miss. (See 6.4)

6.3.3 If the competitor still feels the call is in error, he may appeal to the Range Master. The Range Masters call will be final and no further appeals will be allowed with respect to the scoring decision. Once the next string of fire has begun, there will be no further opportunity to appeal the Range Official’s call.

 

Seems pretty clear.  You can't appeal the RO's call if the next string has begun.  And you can't have a call to appeal if the RO hasn't gone done to look at it---and if you have appealed it, the RM needs to be able to see it at the time.  If the next string has started, he can't.

 

Scooter wrote:  "What if the RO doesn't tell you that you had a miss after a string was shot? I've never shot the nationals but state matches and discovered after that the RO gave me a miss that I thought I hit . "

Then I'd be pissed off, ask the RO to call the RM, and get that miss removed.  If you have no opportunity to appeal, then either 1) there is no miss, or 2) the RM will have to order a reshoot. 

 

It is certainly true that one of the issues with the current rules is that people who have no business being ROs at SC matches can be ROs at SC matches.  I understand why this is true (because there are never enough ROs, and we want people to be able to play in the sport) but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

 

 

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You see alot of ROs just hold up fingers for the scorer for misses at the end of each run and not tell the shooter anything as if it is some big secret that there was a miss or maybe the RO doesnt want to fluster the shooter. Any misses need to be called out at the end of each run and this should also include telling the shooter exactly which plate was allegedly missed. 

 

Now I also think that there needs to be clarification as to when it needs to be called. When I was at WSSC in 2016 there was an RO that was calling misses DURING the run. I told the RO to stop and he ignored me, so I went and got the CRO (Troy) and asked him to educate the RO. This is coaching and can also seriously disrupt a shooters concentration during a run (as it did in my case....so much so that I said that I wanted another run). The only thing an RO should ever say DURING a string is STOP! if there was some sort of serious problem or safety violation. Doing this for newbies at local matches shouldn't be a problem, but at a "World Championship" or anything higher than a local match it should never happen. 

 

On a similar but different topic, ROs that chitchat during my runs really irritates the hell out of me. I don't want to hear "nice run", "who built your guns", or any or crap between strings. Again, the only thing that should come out of an ROs mouth between the "make ready" and "range is clear" is official SCSA/USPSA/NROI commands. 

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6 hours ago, scottlep said:

You see alot of ROs just hold up fingers for the scorer for misses at the end of each run and not tell the shooter anything as if it is some big secret that there was a miss or maybe the RO doesnt want to fluster the shooter. Any misses need to be called out at the end of each run and this should also include telling the shooter exactly which plate was allegedly missed.

 

(emphasis added by me)

 

Agreed.

 

I hadn't realized that this problem was so widespread (particularly if people are arguing that waiting until later to check is a good idea).  So...I also agree that it should be explicitly stated in the rules when the miss call (and the subsequent check on appeal) should occur.  I rather thought the rules were clear, but apparently not!

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On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 9:36 AM, Pasley said:

I think an unambiguous hit to the front of the target should be required.  If it requires arguing it is a miss.

 

Maybe.

They tried this in the first year that NSSF took over the Ruger Rimfire Challenge and it pretty much went away. Its very ambiguous whether any 2 people looking at the same hit can determine if it has some overlap on the front or not. I think if all the plates are mounted facing the shooter this is a non-issue.

As for timing it has to be done at the time of the run, although I have seen cases where all parties agreed to do it after the end of the shooter's last run in a local match. And in that case the scorers counted shots on the plate to make sure no extras got onto it.

Edited by photoracer
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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 10:24 AM, Thomas H said:

 

Still thinking it would be easiest regarding the rules to say "All plates should directly face the shooting box, unless there are multiple boxes whereupon the plates should face the center of the shooting boxes.  The facing direction may be altered for safety purposes, but may not be angled farther away from the shooting box than parallel to the back berm."  (This way everyone does it the same way, everywhere, as opposed to "well, we angle three plates on this stage, but only one on this one" and so on.)

 

And also:  "any hit on the plate (edge or face) counts for score."

 

Again--makes it very simple to understand and RO.  If there is a hit on the plate, it counts.

 

Perfect!

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So I've read through this entire thread and I think the central question has been missed... Namely, do you fundamentally want to change the sport of Steel Challenge or not?  If the rules are changed so that only a hit on the front face counts, this changes the sport.

I get it that the whole 'edge hit' thing is currently very messy - no argument - and I've seen ever kind of 'less than stellar' call you can name at L2 matches ... With regard to edge hits

 

However, it's not the rule that is bad or a problem, it's the fact that we haven't done a very good job of educating and training ROs so they can understand, interprete  & apply the rules we have correctly.  let's not throw the baby out with the bath water ...

 

Let's make sure the rules are as well written and unambiguous as possible & then educate MD, RMs & ROs so the rules are applied correctly & fairly wherever you go.  How about some photos in the rules of what is and is not an edge hit?  Nothing like pics to help people out ....

 

Nothing will kill this sport quicker than shooters belief that the rules are not uniformly applied wherever they go.  Why don't we mandate that ROs must be certified like with USPSA?  And please don't give me that bovine scatology that we don't have enough ROs.  You want to hold a sanctioned match?  Your ROs better be certified, simple.  This of course means HQ and DNROI will need to step up to supply the training but that sound like what our activity fees are for ....

 

This sounds to me a lot like our current immigration craziness ... We don't need new immigration policy/laws; we just need to enforce the current ones we have ....

Edited by Nimitz
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1 hour ago, Nimitz said:

.....Why don't we mandate that ROs must be certified like with USPSA?  And please don't give me that bovine scatology that we don't have enough ROs.  You want to hold a sanctioned match?  Your ROs better be certified, simple.  This of course means HQ and DNROI will need to step up to supply the training but that sound like what our activity fees are for ....

 

 

I was going to post exactly this as a question.  Is there such a thing as SC RO training?  I don't shoot USPSA and the training wouldn't be particularly applicable.  Even if USPSA RO training covered SC I'd be spending a whole lot of extra time hurting my head on "stuff" that isn't applicable to SC.  I've had experienced shooters as RO who very possible were USPSA ROs not know the SC rules.

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5 hours ago, Nimitz said:

Why don't we mandate that ROs must be certified like with USPSA?  And please don't give me that bovine scatology that we don't have enough ROs.  You want to hold a sanctioned match?  Your ROs better be certified, simple.  This of course means HQ and DNROI will need to step up to supply the training but that sound like what our activity fees are for ....

That's going to cause some people's heads on this thread to explode:)

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Zack, we talked about this a little in Alabama. My squad had a weird experience with this issue in SC. There is a deeper problem I think. I have watched a really good shooter throw extra shots at a target in a string and blaze through subsequent strings in an effort to game a stage. In SC, it caused a 30 minute hang up on A: shot placement confusion and B: edge Hits.  My advice and take it for what it is: The score keeper, not the RO, should watch the hits. If they call it a no-hit, it is a no-hit. This debate process, call the MD and whine session, should stop. I am all for review if an edge hit occurs but if the RO and Score Keeper says no, tough. It is kind of an absurd argument. The best of the best put solid hits on steel. I will venture to say a great shooter will accept it for what it is. If the target is not painted, it goes to the shooter. That is a management problem. With the new paint, as thick as it is, this should not be an issue. 

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Zack, we talked about this a little in Alabama. My squad had a weird experience with this issue in SC. There is a deeper problem I think. I have watched a really good shooter throw extra shots at a target in a string and blaze through subsequent strings in an effort to game a stage. In SC, it caused a 30 minute hang up on A: shot placement confusion and B: edge Hits.  My advice and take it for what it is: The score keeper, not the RO, should watch the hits. If they call it a no-hit, it is a no-hit. This debate process, call the MD and whine session, should stop. I am all for review if an edge hit occurs but if the RO and Score Keeper says no, tough. It is kind of an absurd argument. The best of the best put solid hits on steel. I will venture to say a great shooter will accept it for what it is. If the target is not painted, it goes to the shooter. That is a management problem. With the new paint, as thick as it is, this should not be an issue. 

Normally I would agree but more than once and a bunch of times actually the RO/score keeper said miss and had 4 of the shooters say no it was a hit. Edge hit yes but still a hit. I'm not talking about my shots alone .
In the world shoot in Alabama NSSF it was going on a lot at the long range shots where you could see the plate move and was called a miss as well as hear it .
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I have witnessed that myself too and you are correct.  I guess my issue may be seperate. If you have 5 shots on a plate but you doubled up on a bad string and missed on the next string, what do you do? There are 5 shots on the steel. 1 could be on the edge but it was engaged from another string. It may have just been an isolated event but the shooter pulled it off a few times on a few stages.

 

I must let my bitterness pass.. :)

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I'll second the adding of SC training to the standard NROI USPSA RO training.  It wouldn't add that much.  I also agree a second RO should be watching hits.  I RO steel matches (unsanctioned) at one of my clubs.  I'm watching the gun and the shooter and only peripherally the hits.  I almost always catch everything, but the second RO who's only responsibility is to watch hits has the final say.

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