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SCSA Rules - Edge Hits


ZackJones

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This came up over the weekend in a discussion I was having with some other match directors. In USPSA we have the perf that tells us if the shot was contained within the target. Obviously we don't have a perf line on our steel plates. What's your opinion on mandating that ALL scoring hits must hit the front surface of the plate. No edge hits would count. I do think there's a little but of a grey area in that if you have a hit that leaves a mark on the front and side does that count? (I would say yes). 

 

 

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I think that some portion of the bullet strike mark should be visible on the front of the plate. Just "some portion". Trying to regulate how much can lead to much gray area. As long as there is some splash mark on the front it should be a hit. This will eliminate those rounds that just scrape the edge of the plate... leave a black mark only on the side edge... and no indication of a hit on the front portion of the plate.

 

This would make officiating simple and easy IMHO.

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i think edge hits should stay as is.  Not all, but some shooters rely on the report of the steel even though edge hits report is reduced, it's still audible.

Are RO's are going to start making "hit" calls?   Or maybe just make them knockdown plates with calibration zones, but we have that game already.

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Zack, I think it should be clearly stated in the rule book that the targets should be angled to face the shooting box, that would greatly reduce edge hits, and then you could change it to be a visible mark on the front face of the plate.

 

All the different matches I go to, there seems to be some ambiguity on whether the plates should face the shooting box, or they should face parallel to the 180 as depicted in the diagrams.  On some stages like 5 to go, the stop plate presents a much different challenge when it is faced parallel to the 180 as opposed to facing the shooting box.

 

At a match this weekend, on 5 to go with the stop plate facing parallel to the 180, we had a shooter actually hit the side of the steel hangar that holds the plate, and he heard a ding and stopped shooting. If the plate faces the shooting box that can't happen.

 

Also, of topic a bit, but when do the new rules take place, specifically with the multiple cones in front of each shooting box on showdown and outer limits?  Some clubs are using new rules, some are using old rules.

 

 

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If edge hits aren't going to count, then I agree that the plates need to face directly to the shooting box  (which, I"ll note, isn't possible on Outer Limits and Showndown).  If they aren't facing directly, the edge is a piece of steel "facing" the shooter in the box, and so should be a valid part of the target.  A hit there will cause a reaction just like a hit anywhere else on the steel.

 

Has having edge hits count been an actual issue?  I've only seen a couple of cases where it has happened, and it wasn't a big deal.   Don't people already paint the edges if there was a hit there?  (What I'm used to is that before the match, the plates are painted, both front and edges.  All white.  After each shooter, plates are painted where the hits are--so edge hits are painted also.  Do people not actually paint edge hits normally?  What am I missing?)

 

I would suggest "if it hits the steel plate, it counts".  That way no matter how the plate is facing, it makes it very straightfoward in terms of scoring.  Is there a mark on the steel?  Yes? Hit.  No? Miss.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

If edge hits aren't going to count, then I agree that the plates need to face directly to the shooting box  (which, I"ll note, isn't possible on Outer Limits and Showndown).  If they aren't facing directly, the edge is a piece of steel "facing" the shooter in the box, and so should be a valid part of the target.  A hit there will cause a reaction just like a hit anywhere else on the steel.

 

Has having edge hits count been an actual issue?  I've only seen a couple of cases where it has happened, and it wasn't a big deal.   Don't people already paint the edges if there was a hit there?  (What I'm used to is that before the match, the plates are painted, both front and edges.  All white.  After each shooter, plates are painted where the hits are--so edge hits are painted also.  Do people not actually paint edge hits normally?  What am I missing?)

 

I would suggest "if it hits the steel plate, it counts".  That way no matter how the plate is facing, it makes it very straightfoward in terms of scoring.  Is there a mark on the steel?  Yes? Hit.  No? Miss.

 

 

+1  And, yes, in my world a "rub" is a hit.

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If it leaves any mark on the front, no matter how small, it should be a hit.  That leaves the problem of a good ring, but nothing visible on the front, only on the side.  Well, I'd hear it and move on.  Ideally, a "perf" would be machined in the face of the targets and then work it just like USPSA.  That would be tedious and expensive, so I'd say, if it rings it's a hit.  As an RO, I don't like ambiguity.

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I appreciate the feedback. This was an interesting discussion over the weekend and I've had an interesting discussion with Mike and Troy regarding it today. Since we're talking about scoring and the angling of plates on what stages do you angle plates? For me I usually angle as follows:

 

5 To Go - Stop plate. I've shot it both ways and really don't like it when it's not angled toward the shooting box.

Showdown - None.

Smoke & Hope - all 18x24 are angled to some degree.

Outer Limits - None.

Accelerator - 10" on far left

The Pendulum - None.

Speed Option - 12" plates on far left and far right sides.

Roundabout - None.

 

Mosher: To answer your question regarding flags. I would start running them in front of each box now. That's how we're planning to run them at US Steel Nationals and WSSC. Same goes for 3/2 or 2/3 on Showdown. I'm no longer requiring competitors to move after 2 strings on Showdown. I know some would argue this goes against our current rules so what I've been doing is contacting Troy in advance and stating my intention and getting his okay to run the stages that way. So far no one has complained to me about the process. 

Given it's likely we'll delay the release of the rules until after WSSC perhaps I can get Troy to issue an NROI ruling stating all clubs can run with flags in front of each box and 3/2 on Showdown.

 

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I could agree with the ringing part but then you have deaf ROs.

 

What I have found aggravating in the past is somebody finding a gray speck  on the edge, that looks like it could be a gnat turd, and trying to argue it was a hit.

 

Zack should come up with an integrated scoring system.  Wire the targets to record hits, timer automatically puts the time into practiscore while accounting for misses.

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1 hour ago, Pasley said:

Zack should come up with an integrated scoring system.  Wire the targets to record hits, timer automatically puts the time into practiscore while accounting for misses.

And hot girls in skimpy outfits walking across the shooting bay with numbered placards to designate each shooting string.  Yeah... thanks Zach!

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Pasley, every edge hit I've heard ring rubbed at least 1/3" of paint off the edge.  A gnat turd hit would not ring.  When I'm ROing, I'm watching the gun and shooter, not the plates.  When I'm scoring, I watch the plates. A real edge hit does move the plate if you are close.  That being said, I doubt you would see an 18x24 at 35 yards move.

 

If a ring doesn't always count, you are changing the mechanics of the game.  Fast shooters shot and move to the next target.  If they don't hear a ring while moving, they come back to it after they've engaged the four non-stop targets.  If you have to have a visible hit on the front, you will slow things down, because you have to look.  And then there is the problem with distance.  My old eyes have a problem trying to see a 22 hit at 35 yards.

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36 minutes ago, zzt said:

Pasley, every edge hit I've heard ring rubbed at least 1/3" of paint off the edge.  A gnat turd hit would not ring.  When I'm ROing, I'm watching the gun and shooter, not the plates.  When I'm scoring, I watch the plates. A real edge hit does move the plate if you are close.  That being said, I doubt you would see an 18x24 at 35 yards move.

 

If a ring doesn't always count, you are changing the mechanics of the game.  Fast shooters shot and move to the next target.  If they don't hear a ring while moving, they come back to it after they've engaged the four non-stop targets.  If you have to have a visible hit on the front, you will slow things down, because you have to look.  And then there is the problem with distance.  My old eyes have a problem trying to see a 22 hit at 35 yards.

 

Watching for the plate to move is helpful on calm days, but not always certain.  I was at a match yesterday where the wind was blowing hard enough that the plates never stopped moving!  

 

As far as listening for the ring, I can't say how many times I've seen a shooter nail a bolt head and the hit is essentially silent.  By that same token, I've seen many times where a top shooter will go through a string, the RO calls a miss, and the shooter will say something like "3 o'clock, check it," and sure enough there will be a rub mark at the 3 o'clock position.  Top shooters visually call their shots and don't rely on sound.  Trust me, when you're screaming through a sub 2 second run, there isn't time to wait for sound-- visually calling shots is the only option.  

 

I made that mistake this weekend on Smoke and Hope, where I swung wide on the far right plate and saw the dot an inch too far at 2 o'clock when I fired... but heard a plate ring on an adjoining bay and assumed it was my plate with an edger.  I kept going, was informed that it was a miss by both the RO and scorer, and thus ate a 4.83 with the miss penalty instead of trusting my eyes and taking a pickup for a 2 something.  

 

Frankly, for me, listening for the ding isn't a solution, ever.

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19 hours ago, ZackJones said:

I appreciate the feedback. This was an interesting discussion over the weekend and I've had an interesting discussion with Mike and Troy regarding it today. Since we're talking about scoring and the angling of plates on what stages do you angle plates? For me I usually angle as follows:

 

5 To Go - Stop plate. I've shot it both ways and really don't like it when it's not angled toward the shooting box.

Showdown - None.

Smoke & Hope - all 18x24 are angled to some degree.

Outer Limits - None.

Accelerator - 10" on far left

The Pendulum - None.

Speed Option - 12" plates on far left and far right sides.

Roundabout - None.

 

Mosher: To answer your question regarding flags. I would start running them in front of each box now. That's how we're planning to run them at US Steel Nationals and WSSC. Same goes for 3/2 or 2/3 on Showdown. I'm no longer requiring competitors to move after 2 strings on Showdown. I know some would argue this goes against our current rules so what I've been doing is contacting Troy in advance and stating my intention and getting his okay to run the stages that way. So far no one has complained to me about the process. 

Given it's likely we'll delay the release of the rules until after WSSC perhaps I can get Troy to issue an NROI ruling stating all clubs can run with flags in front of each box and 3/2 on Showdown.

 

 

I've shot two different locals and three majors and I think I've seen the angling of the targets done 4 different ways.  I've seen everything from roundabout all targets angled in to smoke and hope not angled at all.   A ruling or addition to rulebook or editing of diagrams to be clear would be nice for consistency.  I only mention it because I know you are drafting the rules rewrite, great time to get it in.  As described above in your post as an addition to rulebook would be perfect, imho.

 

Flags I've seen different at different matches.  Some say the rule change is coming so they going with new flags.  Others say the rule change isn't in effect yet so they go with old flags.  In rules limbo.  That will solve itself after wssc when new rules come out, no biggie.

 

 

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6 hours ago, stango424 said:

Edge hit's should stay.  A hit is a hit, if it is a concern paint should be applied after every shooter. Painting the edges good is very easy.  When you have shooters running sub 2 sec strings edge hits are not uncommon to see.

i have a great edge hit story.  1984 steel challenge, outer limits-bill wilson was shooting. on one of his strings (we shot at 20, 25 & 40 yds back then), his first shot hits the 25 yd 12" plate on the edge at 3 o'clock.  guess where it went?  yep, right down range and hit the 40 yd rectangle!  there was a noticeable pause before his next shot.

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51 minutes ago, danjordan78 said:

Pretty hard for the RO to call hits and misses without going down range every time to verify face hits vs edge hits. Don't think it would work well functionally.

 

 

 

Sometimes they do it mid-string, depends on the RO. But most times you put a pin in it until the shooter finishes their five strings.

 

It doesn't add that much time as it is while they are already painting the stage. And I don't think I've seen it happen more than a couple of times per a match.

Edited by PPGMD
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1 hour ago, Matt1 said:

Here in Oz we paint (including edges) after every shooter. Doesn't take long with 1-2 shooters taking turns. Edges are counted and suspected misses are checked for edge hits if the shooter wants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I shot a match that didn't paint. I volunteered to go first so I would have fresh paint. But man it was so boring, no painting to break up the monotony of the match.

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14 hours ago, PPGMD said:

 

Sometimes they do it mid-string, depends on the RO. But most times you put a pin in it until the shooter finishes their five strings.

 

 

Mid-string?  Or do you mean "between strings"?

Because right now, the rules say that the only time you can protest a "miss" call is at the end of that particular string.  Once you start the next string, you can't argue the miss.

 

Still thinking it would be easiest regarding the rules to say "All plates should directly face the shooting box, unless there are multiple boxes whereupon the plates should face the center of the shooting boxes.  The facing direction may be altered for safety purposes, but may not be angled farther away from the shooting box than parallel to the back berm."  (This way everyone does it the same way, everywhere, as opposed to "well, we angle three plates on this stage, but only one on this one" and so on.)

 

And also:  "any hit on the plate (edge or face) counts for score."

 

Again--makes it very simple to understand and RO.  If there is a hit on the plate, it counts.

 

(As a comment:  Sure, plenty of people don't wait around to hearing the "ding" sound...but they certainly listen for it as they run the rest of the stage, and if they don't hear it, they go back to it.  Even the fast guys.  Seeing and hearing an edge hit but having to tell the shooter that it doesn't count....doesn't thrill me.)

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