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Why are there reliability differences in tuned guns?


SCTaylor

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Guys, this is a serious question and is fully a question based in curiosity.

 

I've noticed that some have problems lighting off S&B or CCI primers with their guns even with the reliability work (polishing, reduced power springs, hammer, sear, etc.). But my setup is pretty minimally modified; 13lb PD hammer spring, xtreme firing pin spring - light, wolff 10lb recoil spring, mild polish (didn't pull trigger bar or sear apart) along with Beven's ream.  This setup is popping off CCI and S&B with only 1 failure in 800+ on an S&B that fired 2nd strike.

 

Any ideas why mine seems to run well versus a highly tuned gun? 

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Yours runs as you should expect it to, that's good to hear.  Reduced power springs are not reliably upgrades, they reduce trigger pull at the expense of reliability.  Guys who are pushing the edge (clipping coils, tweaking springs, etc.) might get lower trigger pull numbers, but are more likely to experience issues with a few rounds down to pipe.

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There are many reasons.

 

1) variation in ammo components and build quality.  primer sensitivity, anvil design, brass cup uniformity (diameter, depth, maliability etc).  depth of primers in the case AND looseness of the primer pocket. Actually passing plunk 100% of the time. And probably a dozen more!

 

2) tolerance of the gun. Small differences in geometric relationships can change the efficiency of the energy transfer from the hammer spring to the primer. It's a SYSTEM and it should be envisioned wholistically to optimize it.

Other tolerances in the depth of the hammer spring and firing pin pocket depth can affect it much more than expected. 

 

3) quality of the tuning / attention to the small details. I don't know of any gun that is optimized "perfectly" in one initial operation. I'm pretty focused on things and my guns (and friend's guns) ALL improve with 2nd, 3rd, 4th polishing  tweaks. I no longer try to reach perfection in one go. Just "pretty good" and then inspect and refine on subsequent detail cleans.

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It's all in the ammo. If a CCI is bottomed out, you don't need much to set it off. If they're loaded on my particular 650, many of them need driven into the pocket a few thousandths to set them off.

 

I run so much spring (EGD Medium) because of ammo I feed my gun, and for no other reason.

 

As an experiment, I loaded 300 Winchesters last night. There *buried* down in there. I'll be trying a 13 pound PD hammer spring with them shortly.

 

Sunk Winchesters up front, CCI in back. Loaded back to back with no changes to press or brass.

 

IMG_0473.thumb.JPG.42626a2711e28d260e9f0f9266b44d61.JPG

 

EDIT: And my SA is a pound heavier than most. Polished to hell with all the goodies and a 13# PD spring, it's 2lbs 14oz. Doesn't bother me though - shoots just fine.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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8 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

 

 

EDIT: And my SA is a pound heavier than most. Polished to hell with all the goodies and a 13# PD spring, it's 2lbs 14oz. Doesn't bother me though - shoots just fine.

My SA (Lim Pro) is the exact same. I have the same springs you have and have done the same work as you.  

 

 

I don't know how people are getting a lower SA?  

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6 minutes ago, ryridesmotox said:

Polish job

Mine's not getting any shinier buddy. I have a frame full of wet chrome-dipped parts.

 

So... Go fish. 

 

I think it's just tolerance stacking. Fortunately, I'm good with it.

 

(My money is actually on variances in sear and hammer hook machining / geometry)

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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7 minutes ago, ryridesmotox said:

Polish job

Agree with MM. Mine is very shiny! 

 

It's not that I'm asking because I want a 2lb trigger. I'm just wondering. 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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You asked, don't say go fish if you don't like the answer... That's the reason, stoning and polishing enough on the hammer and sear interaction points are important.

 

If you'd done any amount of 1911 trigger jobs, the springs are rarely changed out, yet they have really light, crisp triggers because of hammer and sear engagement. Unless someone wants a like, sub 16 ounce break.

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Actually.... you guys are BOTH right.

 

Tolerance stacks are a problem and each machinist seems to do each gun randomly just a weeeeee bit different.

 

Polishing helps fix those issues, mostly. But some guns with identical prepping just do not ever respond to the same level.  frustrating.

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Just now, johnbu said:

Actually.... you guys are BOTH right.

 

Tolerance stacks are a problem and each machinist seems to do each gun randomly just a weeeeee bit different.

 

Polishing helps fix those issues, mostly. But some guns with identical prepping just do not ever respond to the same level.  frustrating.

 

Just requires the proper amount of fitting to recover the stacking. If one doesn't want to or feel comfortable doing it, then the optimal setup will be slightly out of reach. I can, and have accomplished the exact same trigger in 2 different stock 2s that started out much differently from factory. One pulled 10lbs, the other would max out my 12lbs Lyman 

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11 minutes ago, ryridesmotox said:

Good, I couldn't stand another 10 page thread about how your gun won't function While ignoring every piece of sound advice.

 

Not every piece of advice. Just the ones that wanted me to run a gun that won't chew up rusty soviet-bloc primers coming out of a 650. Because they did my thinking for me, and decided that lightweight triggers are a thing I need.

 

If someone had hopped in there and said "run an EGD Medium and it'll pop anything if trigger weight isn't important" then we could have saved 8.5 pages.

 

More polishing wasn't the answer. Huh. Imagine that.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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2 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Not every piece of advice. Just the ones that wanted me to run a gun that won't chew up rusty soviet-bloc primers. Because they did my thinking for me, and decided that lightweight triggers are a thing I need.

 

When people spoon fed you the answer 5 different times, no one was trying to get your a 1lbs break. There were 5 people telling you that you the same thing that you ignored...

 

Deep son... Seat then deep

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Ouch

what happened to all the harmonious helpful chatter.

 

Calm down boys.

 

I have gotten good info from all parties involved

 

Great news  the weekend is here and good weather in the midwest.  put away the polish and go out and shoot!!

 

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4 minutes ago, ryridesmotox said:

 

When people spoon fed you the answer 5 different times, no one was trying to get your a 1lbs break. There were 5 people telling you that you the same thing that you ignored...

 

Deep son... Seat then deep

 

Okay. One last time: I load on a 650, and I'm not changing that for at least two years. Nor spending hours a week hand-priming.

 

The question all along was "what will this gun need to fire the ammo I currently load, so that it will eat any factory or reloaded ammo on the planet?"

 

You kept missing that.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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15 minutes ago, johnbu said:

Lol.  yeah, it can be done. But finding the offending dimension that is out can be a chore.  and fixing them is beyond most people's tool and skill set.

 

For mine, it was less about finding the one offending part, and more about putting everything in the same spec, piece by piece... But then, I've also assembled 1911s from bare frames and 80%ers so the tedious nature doesn't bother me so much.

Edited by ryridesmotox
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5 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Okay. One last time: I load on a 650, and I'm not changing that for at least two years. Nor spending hours a week hand-priming.

 

The question all along was "what will this gun need to fire the ammo I currently load, so that it will eat anybody's reloads?"

 

Return to stock springs, with a polish job. That was also recommended by someone until certain posts were removed.

 

@mfs, go through the dozens of pages where people have answered questions a dozen times... Not talking about Taylor's, this thread is actually quite valuable for someone considering modifying the gun. The problem is, people do things wrong and then have a problem. Then are offered sound advice, which is ignored.

 

ETA: under no circumstance am I saying I am the one offering this advice all the time. Quite the contrary really. Usually I come in posting offensive memes and offering a sarcastic retort

Edited by ryridesmotox
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10 minutes ago, ryridesmotox said:

Return to stock springs, with a polish job. That was also recommended by someone until certain posts were removed.

 

It was. But that didn't end up being as far as I needed to go, right?

 

Now we know that a factory plunger, EGD Med hammer spring, and PD springs/parts everywhere else will make a Tanfo fire anything that a Glock will eat. If you're primers aren't high, it's going to go bang. We didn't know that until I put that combination together. Or at least, no one suggested it aside from @johnbu guessing it could be a winning recipe.

 

Sidenote: I know of two other people who had the same issue I had (they run factory ammo) and asked me what I did via PM. They're both now rocking an EGD Medium spring in a gun that eats Freedom ammo, hard European primers, and anything else.

 

You might find my little journey frustrating for whatever reason, but not everyone has felt that way.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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