Shooter Induced Sear Bounce

[BeerBaron]

if none of these solutions work consider the possibility that the pin holes in the frame are out of spec. this would explain why it happened with stock parts too.

 

if the distance between the hammer and sear pins is slightly out of spec (on the large side) then you get less sear/hammer engagement.

 

if the trigger job was setup on a jig it may look fine but when in the frame it's a different story.

 

this can be checked by getting a set of 'outside pins' (sorry can't remember the technical term). 

 

these pins allow you to setup the sear and hammer outside the frame but using the frame pin holes. then you can see what kind of engagement you have. one solution would be a longer sear (will need the nose custom cut) or obviously a new frame would fix it too (last resort!).

[kimberacp]

Using outside pins, really doesn't give the complete picture.   Because the you are only using one side of the frame for the pin holes.   

 

The only way,  is to install all the parts into the frame, after marking the sear face, dry fire a few times and remove the sear.   How is it swiping?    

In regards to the hooks and sear face, the complete picture will be shown there.

 

Now...there are many other items that influence the trigger job.   But getting the correct sear angle to the hammer hooks, can be seen by doing what I have described above.   Depending how it is swiping, you dress the sear face or the hooks to make equal contact.    Mark the sear again, install all the parts and dry fire, remove and recheck.

 

That's the short story.    But in reality, it takes a lot time to do all this.   Back and forth, back and forth.     AND, if you take too much off the sear or hooks, you start to chase it and in the end you ruin something!    Either the hammer or sear!!!!

 

That's why it best it leave it, to someone who really knows what they doing!!!

JMO, good luck

[357SIG]

On 2/10/2017 at 4:54 PM, Racinready300ex said:

So the answer for him is try a 3rd smith? 3rd time is the charm I guess

 

     The answer is to get it to someone who knows what they are doing. It was a nice way of saying if his trigger is doing what he is saying then the ones that have worked on this didn't know what they were doing. There are plenty of gunsmiths that can't do a descent 1911 trigger and probably have no business even messing with one.  

     If it is the holes in the frame are out of spec as Beerbaron  mentioned, then this should have been discovered with the first trigger job attempt. I would think if the holes are in fact out of spec then the frame manufacturer should fix this at there cost. As far as grip pressure being the cause of such an issue that is going to have to be explained. I know guys who can grip a 2011 to the point the mag won't come out including myself, but can't make that affect the sear releasing. I have however seen a grip that was loose and would move enough to affect the trigger and how it worked.  

      As far as the the money that has been spent on the 2 trigger jobs that obviously do not work properly, it should be refunded so he can pay a reputable smith to fix this pistol. IMO the hardest part of a 1911 build is the trigger and is the most important to get right for safety as well as shootability.

[Racinready300ex]

44 minutes ago, 357SIG said:

     The answer is to get it to someone who knows what they are doing. It was a nice way of saying if his trigger is doing what he is saying then the ones that have worked on this didn't know what they were doing. There are plenty of gunsmiths that can't do a descent 1911 trigger and probably have no business even messing with one.  

     If it is the holes in the frame are out of spec as Beerbaron  mentioned, then this should have been discovered with the first trigger job attempt. I would think if the holes are in fact out of spec then the frame manufacturer should fix this at there cost. As far as grip pressure being the cause of such an issue that is going to have to be explained. I know guys who can grip a 2011 to the point the mag won't come out including myself, but can't make that affect the sear releasing. I have however seen a grip that was loose and would move enough to affect the trigger and how it worked.  

      As far as the the money that has been spent on the 2 trigger jobs that obviously do not work properly, it should be refunded so he can pay a reputable smith to fix this pistol. IMO the hardest part of a 1911 build is the trigger and is the most important to get right for safety as well as shootability.

 

My gun does the same, I had a pretty well known smith do the work.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Racinready300ex

[BallisticExpansion]

Both smiths that worked on the gun are competent full time gunsmiths. Also I personally know shooters who have used both of them and handled other guns they have worked on. It did cross my mind that the pin holes could be off. I will contact STI about sending it in for warranty. After that I may sell it if I am not able to shoot it. 

[Racinready300ex]

I know my guns pin holes are off as the Smith who worked on it showed me. He took care of that when fitting the sear.

[BallisticExpansion]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I know my guns pin holes are off as the Smith who worked on it showed me. He took care of that when fitting the sear.

How was he able to show you? I am planning on checking mine. I need to find out the correct distance between the sear and hammer pin holes. I will mic distance from outside of one pin to the other and subtract the radius of each pin to give a center to center distance on both sides of the gun. This should tell me if they are square and drilled in the right place. Anyone have any idea what the correct distance is on a 2011 frame from sear to hammer pin hole?

 

Some good news today. I know for a fact it is something with the gun and not the way I shoot. This makes more sense and what I had thought to begin with. I shot a practice session with a friend of mine who is a M and my gun had the same problem for him. I had the chance to shoot his open gun and could not replicate the issue my gun is having.

 

I will add that adjusting the trigger pre travel and over travel have made it less likely to occur, but it still occurs nonetheless.  

 

Now I believe it must be something in the grip or frame. I am going to try and find a fellow shooter who can loan me a different grip to see if that changes anything. In the meantime I will check the sear/hammer pin holes as mentioned and spend a little more time polishing the disco hole in the frame. 

 

Raceinready300ex- how exactly did you sand out your disco pin hole? I was thinking a cotton qtip in a drill and valve grinding compound. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

So in my case the smith had pre-prepped the hammer and sear for the install. When he tried to install them he was only getting contact on half the sear. He was checking it as posted above, use a blue sharpie color over the contact points, and dry fire the gun. Then he had to work a little magic on the sear until he got proper contact on the hammer hooks.

 

For the disconnecter hole I took a dremel bit, and wrapped a little bit of 400 grit sand paper and worked it inside the hole until all the cerakote was gone. Then I used a small Ram Rodz cleaning swab (basically a q-tip but more durable) applied some blue magic metal polish used my drill and polished inside the hole. i also polished the disconnecter.

 

Above, MrPostman mentioned to weak of a main spring could cause this too. I have been running a 17 lbs spring in the gun for a year. I've probably only run 6-8k rounds through the gun plus a ton of dry fire before the hold hammer broke. This problem popped up a little after I installed a new hammer and sear. So maybe my problem has been a worn main spring all along? I installed a new 19 lbs spring last week and it ran flawlessly in practice over the weekend. I'll go practice again Wed, and I have a match on Saturday. If it makes it through all of that with no problems I think I might be set.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Racinready300ex

[BallisticExpansion]

I believe I have found the cause of my problem! I started looking closer at the grip and found this.... (picture below). A small gap between the grip and frame at the back where they mate up (on both sides). It didn't seem like a big deal. Until I pulled down on the dust cover and the gap increased in size. Woops. I thought maybe the grip itself was bad, but it is not that old and I couldn't find any defects or cracks in it. Well I happened to have a CK arms grip bushing spare kit and decided to give it a try. I began installing that and could immediately tell they were a tighter fit and locked down much more snug. Sure enough the gap disappeared! 

 

Here is my reasoning of what was happening. Under heavy recoil , which occurs in rapid fire due to rapid cycling of the slide or whenever my grip was loose the grip was flexing away from the frame giving the sear just enough room to "bounce" off the hammer hooks, but not enough to miss the halfcock. Therefore, hammer falls to half cock. 

 

I fired about 15rds through it the other evening at a target 3yds away. I was able to shoot several .12 and .13 splits and no follow. I ordered another extreme sear to replace the one the last smith chopped trying to fix the problem. When I get it in the gun I will put 100 or more rounds through it and see if that was 100% the problem. 

 

It's a sick twist after spending all that time and money on smiths only for it to be a $15 fix that  I NOTICED. Sometimes it's the small things. Thank you for all who posted with advice and suggestions. I will confirm after this weekend if that was the problem.

[BeerBaron]

Yeah a loose grip can cause all kinds of nonsense. Dawson also sell oversize bushings to prevent this. 

[scooterj]

Stippled or reduced poly grips often flex enough to not allow mags to drop for certain people, too. 

 

[357SIG]

Loose grip....hmmm imagine that.....LMAO!!!! Guess those "well known" smiths forgot to check that...

[Racinready300ex]

57 minutes ago, 357SIG said:

Loose grip....hmmm imagine that.....LMAO!!!! Guess those "well known" smiths forgot to check that...

 

Ballistic said he had smiths work on his gun, But I was the one who said I had a "well known" smith work on mine.  I've decided not to name the shop as they frequent this board and I do not believe they did anything wrong. I believe I have found my problem too, it was in MrPostman's suggestions. I bumped up to a new and heavier main spring and so far it seems to be good. Hopefully I'm not good to go, but I want to put a few 100 more rounds through it before I'll really feel confident in this gun.

[BallisticExpansion]

7 hours ago, BeerBaron said:

Yeah a loose grip can cause all kinds of nonsense. Dawson also sell oversize bushings to prevent this. 

Tell me about it lol. Didn't know that about Dawson, will keep that in mind. Thank you.

 

 

2 hours ago, scooterj said:

Stippled or reduced poly grips often flex enough to not allow mags to drop for certain people, too. 

 

Yep. Got to be careful especially on the sides of the grip where the polymer is thin. 

 

 

1 hour ago, 357SIG said:

Loose grip....hmmm imagine that.....LMAO!!!! Guess those "well known" smiths forgot to check that...

For real. The first guy wasn't looking for it in his defense, but still. The 2nd guy was given the pistol with the express reason to fix the issue. Then proceeded to take 3months instead of the discussed 3-4wks... I won't be going back to a smith anytime soon. I would rather buy the tools and learn myself on these kind of issues anyway.

 

 

Looks like I will have to wait until early next week. Sear won't be here until Monday.   I have waited this long. I suppose I can wait a little bit more haha. 

[BallisticExpansion]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Ballistic said he had smiths work on his gun, But I was the one who said I had a "well known" smith work on mine.  I've decided not to name the shop as they frequent this board and I do not believe they did anything wrong. I believe I have found my problem too, it was in MrPostman's suggestions. I bumped up to a new and heavier main spring and so far it seems to be good. Hopefully I'm not good to go, but I want to put a few 100 more rounds through it before I'll really feel confident in this gun.

Yeah the first guy is certified from the PA gunsmith school and worked with apprenticed under a retired AMU smith. I actually had a friend take the gun to him because of their connection. He fit my safeties and trigger group for $100 and had the gun back in just over 2wks. I felt it was all solid work. If I wanted a quick trigger job local I would probably go back to him. I didn't personally meet him so I can't comment on his bedside manner. His business is Moss Firearms, first name Brannen. 

 

The 2nd smith was another guy in the North GA area. He as a policy though where if you ask for an update he just ignores you. If you keep asking he will try and charge you $125 extra. The policy is clearly stated in his info. That wouldn't have been a problem except when he had the gun 3x longer than what was agreed upon and threatened the $125 after I had sent him a total of 3 emails in 3 months. In person he was not difficult to deal with at all. I actually shot a match with him before and enjoyed shooting with him. I did have him pin my grip safety and that work was fine. However, I don't think I will be returning to him because of his communication policies. I believe many smiths have a problem of too many clients and not enough resources to handle it. I am fine with an extended wait time, but to promise one thing and then refuse communication is bad business in my opinion.  I will not post his info publicly. If you are that curious send me a PM about it. 

 

Yeah I have always ran an ISMI 17lb Mainspring. No problems thus far. I will keep that in mind though about trying a 19lb spring. Thanks for the help!

[Racinready300ex]

I've heard stories like that about a few smiths in the past. Not good business practice IMO and not places I recommend to people.

 

I'm going to take a closer look at my grip, but it seems tight. The bushings are tight, and even hard to get in. I always put a drop of loc-tite on the screw to make sure it doesn't go anywhere.

[357SIG]

Seriously guys, I'm glad you seemed to have found the fix to your issues.

     My point is that the design of the 1911/2011 trigger has been around for over 100 years and it works, if done properly. Nothing you can do is going to make it not work as it is supposed to, unless something is wrong. We lighten the triggers to make the guns shoot better and it requires more skill by the gunsmith to do this than a standard G.I. trigger. The unfortunate part is there are very few gunsmiths who truly understand how to do this properly so it works reliably, safely, and lasts.

    There is nothing more painful to watch than a shooter who's equipment is not working, whats worse is to see them get taken advantage of by supposed gunsmiths. Just because some assjack buys all the tools and jigs from Brownells, watches a few how to videos, this doesn't make them a gunsmith. If you get your gun to someone who knows what they are doing, they will figure out the problem. A knowledgeable smith will check everything, as it is many parts all working together that make the trigger work properly. 

     

Edited February 23, 2017 by 357SIG

[BallisticExpansion]

3 hours ago, 357SIG said:

Seriously guys, I'm glad you seemed to have found the fix to your issues.

     My point is that the design of the 1911/2011 trigger has been around for over 100 years and it works, if done properly. Nothing you can do is going to make it not work as it is supposed to, unless something is wrong. We lighten the triggers to make the guns shoot better and it requires more skill by the gunsmith to do this than a standard G.I. trigger. The unfortunate part is there are very few gunsmiths who truly understand how to do this properly so it works reliably, safely, and lasts.

    There is nothing more painful to watch than a shooter who's equipment is not working, whats worse is to see them get taken advantage of by supposed gunsmiths. Just because some assjack buys all the tools and jigs from Brownells, watches a few how to videos, this doesn't make them a gunsmith. If you get your gun to someone who knows what they are doing, they will figure out the problem. A knowledgeable smith will check everything, as it is many parts all working together that make the trigger work properly. 

     

Exactly what I was thinking when my smith told me I was creating the issue.   

Yeah it was painful to spend all that time and money too. Especially for someone in my position (full time student, part time employee). 

 

Just about anyone can fit a single part to a 1911. But how it works with the other parts is the key and probably the most difficult part of the job. 

 

Also I wanted to add something I forgot. The 2nd smith even had a "well known" smith he is friends with come in and he couldn't figure out my problem either. I don't know how much time he spent looking at it, but technically 3 smiths at least looked at it. Wow. 

 

[357SIG]

1 hour ago, BallisticExpansion said:

Exactly what I was thinking when my smith told me I was creating the issue.   

Yeah it was painful to spend all that time and money too. Especially for someone in my position (full time student, part time employee). 

 

Just about anyone can fit a single part to a 1911. But how it works with the other parts is the key and probably the most difficult part of the job. 

 

Also I wanted to add something I forgot. The 2nd smith even had a "well known" smith he is friends with come in and he couldn't figure out my problem either. I don't know how much time he spent looking at it, but technically 3 smiths at least looked at it. Wow. 

 

   You would be surprised how many " gunsmiths" can't fit parts on a 1911/2011, I have seen so many hack jobs its ridiculous. The worst part about it is when you see a shooter take there gun to a local "well known" gunsmith and he does a crap job, they don't really say much because they don't want to offend anyone. The inexperienced shooters are worse because they don't even know they got screwed, or the ones who are embarrassed to tell you they got ripped off. When I say there are a few guys that do triggers that are done right, I mean a few as in maybe a half dozen in my whole state. Then there's the guy that drops thousands of dollars on a new race gun and after he gets it has to send it to someone else to get a decent trigger, because the builder can cut and measure but couldn't get the trigger right. He is embarrassed to tell anyone that, and doesn't want to offend the "well Known " smith's fans...lol.

    I have been in your shoes and it sucks but I will tell you this, find a reputable smith to do your stuff. By reputable I mean a guy that if he can't fix the issue doesn't charge you for not doing the job. You may pay a little more but you will get the quality and reliability you expect. Also don't buy into the "well known" BS, they can either fix it or they can't. If they can't fix it don't be afraid to call there ass out if they try to charge you, tell them to put your old parts back and go elsewhere...you owe them nothing because they failed to do the job. If I were to take my gun to a smith and they tell me they can do a job and its not right, you better believe I would tell the whole world about it....its how you stop them from ripping off the next guy because he will go somewhere else.  

      

[BallisticExpansion]

3 hours ago, 357SIG said:

   You would be surprised how many " gunsmiths" can't fit parts on a 1911/2011, I have seen so many hack jobs its ridiculous. The worst part about it is when you see a shooter take there gun to a local "well known" gunsmith and he does a crap job, they don't really say much because they don't want to offend anyone. The inexperienced shooters are worse because they don't even know they got screwed, or the ones who are embarrassed to tell you they got ripped off. When I say there are a few guys that do triggers that are done right, I mean a few as in maybe a half dozen in my whole state. Then there's the guy that drops thousands of dollars on a new race gun and after he gets it has to send it to someone else to get a decent trigger, because the builder can cut and measure but couldn't get the trigger right. He is embarrassed to tell anyone that, and doesn't want to offend the "well Known " smith's fans...lol.

    I have been in your shoes and it sucks but I will tell you this, find a reputable smith to do your stuff. By reputable I mean a guy that if he can't fix the issue doesn't charge you for not doing the job. You may pay a little more but you will get the quality and reliability you expect. Also don't buy into the "well known" BS, they can either fix it or they can't. If they can't fix it don't be afraid to call there ass out if they try to charge you, tell them to put your old parts back and go elsewhere...you owe them nothing because they failed to do the job. If I were to take my gun to a smith and they tell me they can do a job and its not right, you better believe I would tell the whole world about it....its how you stop them from ripping off the next guy because he will go somewhere else.  

      

I think many shooters are doing their own trigger installation nowadays. I personally know a handful of shooters who have bought the kit from Brazos and loved it. If your frame is good the parts really don't require any fitting. That's what my friend has in his open gun that I shot last weekend, and it felt nice. EGW also sells a similar kit. Doing that or buying your own sear jig seems the way many go. 

[MrPostman]

I think many shooters are doing their own trigger installation nowadays. I personally know a handful of shooters who have bought the kit from Brazos and loved it. If your frame is good the parts really don't require any fitting. That's what my friend has in his open gun that I shot last weekend, and it felt nice. EGW also sells a similar kit. Doing that or buying your own sear jig seems the way many go. 

Yep, I sold a Brazos kit to a local shooter and everything dropped in. The only thing he had to do is fit the thumb safety which I told him how to do over the phone. He has sent me a few texts about how awesome his new trigger feels compared to the stock STI trigger. It isn't difficult to do at all.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[MrPostman]

I believe I have found the cause of my problem! I started looking closer at the grip and found this.... (picture below). A small gap between the grip and frame at the back where they mate up (on both sides). It didn't seem like a big deal. Until I pulled down on the dust cover and the gap increased in size. Woops. I thought maybe the grip itself was bad, but it is not that old and I couldn't find any defects or cracks in it. Well I happened to have a CK arms grip bushing spare kit and decided to give it a try. I began installing that and could immediately tell they were a tighter fit and locked down much more snug. Sure enough the gap disappeared! 

 

Here is my reasoning of what was happening. Under heavy recoil , which occurs in rapid fire due to rapid cycling of the slide or whenever my grip was loose the grip was flexing away from the frame giving the sear just enough room to "bounce" off the hammer hooks, but not enough to miss the halfcock. Therefore, hammer falls to half cock. 

 

I fired about 15rds through it the other evening at a target 3yds away. I was able to shoot several .12 and .13 splits and no follow. I ordered another extreme sear to replace the one the last smith chopped trying to fix the problem. When I get it in the gun I will put 100 or more rounds through it and see if that was 100% the problem. 

 

It's a sick twist after spending all that time and money on smiths only for it to be a $15 fix that  I NOTICED. Sometimes it's the small things. Thank you for all who posted with advice and suggestions. I will confirm after this weekend if that was the problem.

Glad you found the problem, seems like someone suggested a loose grip which while it wasn't the problem helped you look in that area. Plastic grips are great for weight reduction and make mag changes easier, but they can crack and flex so they do have to be changed out eventually.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[MrPostman]

 

Ballistic said he had smiths work on his gun, But I was the one who said I had a "well known" smith work on mine.  I've decided not to name the shop as they frequent this board and I do not believe they did anything wrong. I believe I have found my problem too, it was in MrPostman's suggestions. I bumped up to a new and heavier main spring and so far it seems to be good. Hopefully I'm not good to go, but I want to put a few 100 more rounds through it before I'll really feel confident in this gun.

So in my case the smith had pre-prepped the hammer and sear for the install. When he tried to install them he was only getting contact on half the sear. He was checking it as posted above, use a blue sharpie color over the contact points, and dry fire the gun. Then he had to work a little magic on the sear until he got proper contact on the hammer hooks.

 

For the disconnecter hole I took a dremel bit, and wrapped a little bit of 400 grit sand paper and worked it inside the hole until all the cerakote was gone. Then I used a small Ram Rodz cleaning swab (basically a q-tip but more durable) applied some blue magic metal polish used my drill and polished inside the hole. i also polished the disconnecter.

 

Above, MrPostman mentioned to weak of a main spring could cause this too. I have been running a 17 lbs spring in the gun for a year. I've probably only run 6-8k rounds through the gun plus a ton of dry fire before the hold hammer broke. This problem popped up a little after I installed a new hammer and sear. So maybe my problem has been a worn main spring all along? I installed a new 19 lbs spring last week and it ran flawlessly in practice over the weekend. I'll go practice again Wed, and I have a match on Saturday. If it makes it through all of that with no problems I think I might be set.

Glad I could help. The 1911 was designed around a 28lb mainspring weight, so going too low can cause problems if your hammer to sear engagement is not perfect, which can be caused by any number of factors.

Diagram from Kuhnhausens book of the 1911



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[CHA-LEE]

When someone comes to me with a 2011 that has hammer follow issues the first thing I do is grab the front of the gun in one hand and the grip in the other. Then try to bend them toward and away from one another while observing the gap between the back of the frame and the top of the back strap of the grip. If I can change the size of the gap by bending it back and forth then the grip screws are either loose or the steel inserts within the grip have started to separate from the plastic (Delaminate).

 

If the grip can move independently from the frame it will cause all kinds of inconsistent trigger action issues. More often than not the primary issue is simply loose grip screws. But I have seen on several occasions where the grip its self has failed because the steel insert has started to delaminate from the plastic around it. The plastic grips that I have seen fail are usually ones that have super aggressive stippling or undercut trigger guards. Stippling and undercutting the trigger guard can dramatically reduce the structural rigidity of the plastic and it promotes the delamination process from the metal inserts.

 

Switching to a metal grip will eliminate the delamination issue, but you still need to keep the grip screws tight to keep the grip from shifting around on the frame. 

 

How two different gunsmiths didn't find the grip issue immediately is alarming given how prevalent that issue is.  

[Racinready300ex]

On 2/23/2017 at 10:48 AM, 357SIG said:

Seriously guys, I'm glad you seemed to have found the fix to your issues.

     My point is that the design of the 1911/2011 trigger has been around for over 100 years and it works, if done properly. Nothing you can do is going to make it not work as it is supposed to, unless something is wrong. We lighten the triggers to make the guns shoot better and it requires more skill by the gunsmith to do this than a standard G.I. trigger. The unfortunate part is there are very few gunsmiths who truly understand how to do this properly so it works reliably, safely, and lasts.

    There is nothing more painful to watch than a shooter who's equipment is not working, whats worse is to see them get taken advantage of by supposed gunsmiths. Just because some assjack buys all the tools and jigs from Brownells, watches a few how to videos, this doesn't make them a gunsmith. If you get your gun to someone who knows what they are doing, they will figure out the problem. A knowledgeable smith will check everything, as it is many parts all working together that make the trigger work properly. 

     

 

i get where you were coming from. I've searched and read countless threads on this issue trying to figure out my problem. The default answer is sear spring, and hammer/sear hooks. Then it's followed by take it to a gun smith. A few will mention over travel, and pre travel. And if the standard answers don't work the response is always find a better gun smith. Typically no mention of who the better smith needs to be.

 

I took mine to a smith, spend $300 getting new hammer, sear, dis, safety, and sear spring installed and tuned. Problem popped up again. That guy wasn't local, and there isn't a local I would take it to for this type of work. So the next step would of been spend $70 to ship it to another smith for him to try to figure it out. It ended up being a $2 spring that of all the threads I've read, no one has ever mentioned the main spring could cause issues like this.

 

I'm now at 500 rounds with no malfunctions.