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Compare 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP in Self-Defense Shooting?


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First, let me preface that this is not a caliber debate.  Rather, it is my curiosity of the difference between three most popular calibers in self-defense.

All the recent ballistic tests showing with the modern bullet designs, the ballistic gelatin tests showing penetrations are relative similar between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP.  Thus, many law-enforcement agencies are embracing the 9mm caliber.

However, as all IPSC shooters know that when it comes down to knock down power of the pepper poppers, the larger/major caliber rounds will have more power and take down the popper faster.  So, 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP all have similar penetration in ballistic gelatin (presumably in body issue), how do we account for the increase knock down power in 40 S&W and 45 ACP in self-defense shooting? 

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Newton's third law tells us all we need to know.  If a bullet is to "knock down" what it hits then the force with which it hits the object, will be equally imparted on the firing gun.

 

I don't know about you, but I've never been knocked over by shooting any firearm.

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True, but Newton's Third Law doesn't take into account the damage done to the recipient upon receiving any of the three mentioned above.  I fully agree that "Knock Down Power" is a poor way to describe the desired results.

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My department switched from 40 to 9mm here in the last few years. A lot of research went into the decision, and it showed 9mm and 40 defensive loads performed similarly. However, there was a significant difference between the two calibers when it came to our officer's abilities to shoot them well. The 9mm was far ahead of the 40 in that category. Now, I know the 45 would likely be a bit more effective than the 40 or 9mm, but the problem with that is limited capacity, and the size of the guns. They're just too big for many folks to shoot them well. So, by switching to 9mm we gained capacity, and shootability over the 40 in a package that fits the majority of our officers very well.

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When was the last time you saw Major 9 ammo fail to drop a popper from a center hit with an Open gun?

 

While that's an exaggeration of 9mm's power, the production guns you're referring to lie also. They're running with poofpoof ammo. That's not what we carry for defense.

 

Even the new guy shooting white box or UMC is shooting a light target 115gr load, so he's not a good indicator either.

 

Run some hot 127 or 147 grain ammo through your gun (147gr Speer Gold Dot was roughly 150PF through my fullsize Glock) and tell me if the performance gap between 9 and 40 doesn't narrow slightly.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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It all boils down to training and shot placement. While LE shoots to stop a threat, the reality is it is often times fatal. The .22 round has probably killed more people than any other caliber, though I'm not sure there an any stats to support this. The 9mm round has come and gone in and out of popularity in the LE industry over the years, and is popular again with +P+, and the like. The hard problem for agencies is that one gun does not fit all hands, so alternatives are necessary.

 

Bullet design for defensive purposes is also critical in that the goal is to transfer as much energy into the target, generally a person. That's why ball ammo is no good in that it just drills a hole through the target while only transferring minimal energy into it. Assuming the target is a person, the person might not even be aware he/she was shot. Engineers have been trying to find the perfect caliber/powder combination for ever, and thus all the pistol calibers you see today. My memory is probably failing, but wasn't it the FBI that thought the 40 was going to be the be-all, end-all round?

 

Not sure I added anything of value here, but it's pretty much all I got.  :cheers:

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I was watching a gun show one time (forgive me)  and the were showing the new 45 and 9mm loads from a major manufacturer.  They were describing the oft repeated tale of the new 9mm rounds being as effective as the 45.  They then shot both rounds into ballistics gel to compare.  First they shot the 9mm and the bullet opened up made a good wound channel and was caught in the gel.  Then the shot a block of gel with the 45, it blew completely through the gel block, with a larger wound channel, and also threw the block several feet off of the table.  It was informative to say the least, I almost couldn't believe they showed it as it seemed to disprove what they were talking about right before testing the rounds.  I have felt that they new 9mm rounds always get compared to ball 45 ammo, everyone seems to forget that 45 has been evolving too.

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39 minutes ago, armydad said:

It all boils down to training and shot placement. While LE shoots to stop a threat, the reality is it is often times fatal. The .22 round has probably killed more people than any other caliber, though I'm not sure there an any stats to support this. The 9mm round has come and gone in and out of popularity in the LE industry over the years, and is popular again with +P+, and the like. The hard problem for agencies is that one gun does not fit all hands, so alternatives are necessary.

 

Bullet design for defensive purposes is also critical in that the goal is to transfer as much energy into the target, generally a person. That's why ball ammo is no good in that it just drills a hole through the target while only transferring minimal energy into it. Assuming the target is a person, the person might not even be aware he/she was shot. Engineers have been trying to find the perfect caliber/powder combination for ever, and thus all the pistol calibers you see today. My memory is probably failing, but wasn't it the FBI that thought the 40 was going to be the be-all, end-all round?

 

Not sure I added anything of value here, but it's pretty much all I got.  :cheers:

 

The goal is to create as big and as deep a hole as possible. Energy is not a wounding mechanism at pistol caliber velocities. 

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Keeping in mind you're not carrying your race gun...
The easiest way to eliminate all conjecture, is go shoot them side by side. Use a 8x11 piece of paper. Shoot say 8rds (being fair to the .45) from the draw, as fast as possible. That will tell you everything you need to know.
Hits are all that counts; more importantly critical hits.


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Handgun rounds are not good at stopping bad people from doing bad things. Looking at the available literature, it takes on average 2 to 3 rounds to stop a bad guy. Those rounds need to hit areas that cause incapacitation. So, between those three calibers all do a poor job. You need 2-3 to rounds on target.

So my wisdom would be select a firearm that fits you best, that you will carry (if you don't have it, it doesn't matter the caliber), that you can hit relatively small targets with 2-3 rounds fast and accurate and that has the greatest capacity.

Then spend all of the rest of your firearms time training with competent instructors and practicing so you can hit those small things three times faster and faster with absolute confidence.

Just my 2¢

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Many years ago, the Illinois State Police switched to 9mm +P+ ammo,

and reported that in the next hundreds of shootings, that  NO ONE

shot solidly by their new 9mm +P+ rounds ever returned fire.

 

Have to factor in the velocity.

 

I've shot small furry creatures with a .45, and they hardly got bowled over.

Many ran a LONG ways.

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Handgun rounds are not good at stopping bad people from doing bad things. Looking at the available literature, it takes on average 2 to 3 rounds to stop a bad guy. Those rounds need to hit areas that cause incapacitation. So, between those three calibers all do a poor job. You need 2-3 to rounds on target.

So my wisdom would be select a firearm that fits you best, that you will carry (if you don't have it, it doesn't matter the caliber), that you can hit relatively small targets with 2-3 rounds fast and accurate and that has the greatest capacity.

Then spend all of the rest of your firearms time training with competent instructors and practicing so you can hit those small things three times faster and faster with absolute confidence.

Just my 2¢

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So, based on your "available literature" what is good for stopping bad people doing bad things?
What does guns and ammo say is the perfect one shot wonder?
Because a .22 will kill/ stop very effectively if placed in the right spot, as will any caliber.

The statement you made about 2-3 rounds is not based on caliber. It is absolutely based in accuracy, which leads back to training.

Based on experience.


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That is just it, there isn't a one one shot wonder. Training is the wonder. Do work, work hard, get to work.

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But to say pistols are poor at stopping someone is inaccurate. Especially when that is all you have.


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What would the MSM complain about in LE shootings if the officer only shot the bad guy once or twice, instead of 6 to 16 times, as it sometimes reported these days?

 

They don't tell us what caliber the LEO was using, just how many times he shot the poor misguided youngster who was so loved by his neighbors, etc., etc., etc.

 

They don't tell us where the bullets hit the bad guy.

 

LE went down the road of the 9MM is best many years ago.  I was in LE in the early 80's when the 9 was crowned the new king.  My department issued 4" S&W 686's with 125 grain hollow points.  Those had a hell of a reputation at the time, which is why we used them.

 

Yes, I carry 9's sometimes these days.  And they have lots of those nasty hollow points in them.  My favorite/most often carried gun these days is a .40 S&W P07.  Why?  Because damn it shoots good groups and it has about twice as many rounds as my 1911's and it's 100% reliable and it fits my hand really well and all of that is what counts, to me.

 

In the end, carry what is dependable, what you shoot well, and what you feel good about carrying.

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American Handgunner ran an article (Sept/Oct 2013) by an LEO / firearms instructor who did a test of the above calibers, as well as the .22, 25acp, 32, 380 and 357 mag. He used data from 2000 shootings, over a ten year period, all either military or domestic, but all were conflict shootings. (not self inflicted, etc) He listed (among other things) 1 shot stops (all in percentages), average number of shots to stop, and percent who didn't stop. Included are reasons guns stop. Very informative. Go online and read it...

The clear winner?  The .357 Mag.

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18 hours ago, SCTaylor said:

Newton's third law tells us all we need to know.  If a bullet is to "knock down" what it hits then the force with which it hits the object, will be equally imparted on the firing gun.

 

I don't know about you, but I've never been knocked over by shooting any firearm.

This isn't you then?

 

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I have to wonder about the AH data - it shows that The Most Effective

caliber for one-shot stops is the  ....    (gasp)    .32   - much higher than

the .40 or .45?   Who would have guessed.

 

And The Most Effective caliber in terms of how many rounds it took

to "stop" someone, is  the    .....    (gasp)     .22 - much better round

than the .45.   Of course, they may have thrown some of those manstopping

.22 SHORTS in with the ineffective .22 LR's.

 

I lived on a farm for 35 years, and shot EVERYTHING with .22's, .38's, 9mm's,

.41's and .45's.

 

When people say that 9mm's have no "stopping power", they are correct.   BUT,

neither does the .45 or .41 - believe me, I've shot hundreds of animals from 2- 200 lbs with everything.

 

Nothing works as fast as you'd like it to in a close quarters pistol fight.

 

JUST KEEP SHOOTING ...  :bow:

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