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No love for the Tavor X95 in 9mm?


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I've run the Tavor in back to back matches now (USPSA rules, though outlaw matches), and it's just a beast. Fun as hell, easy to run with, insanely maneuverable, and (once I figured out the ammo) absolutely ROCK solid. PCC is getting popular and out of the ~40 competitors at each match there were 8-9 PCCs, and the Tavor outran them all in terms of reliability. The first match I had issues with FTEs using Stand One Chubbies - these are -P 147 gr 9mm loads that are designed to just cycle the action in a pistol. Super, super soft shooting. When I got the gun, I took it to the range and ran a good 150 rounds or so of Chubbies through it without a hitch. Problems showed up in the match after about 40 shots, so I switched to hotter ammo and didn't have a problem. Turns out even Stand One recommends their somewhat hotter (but still subsonic) 147gr loads for submachine guns, and unlike the pistol there's very, very little feel difference between them. Chubbies still work if the gun is clean and lubed (up to around 200 rounds), but get it a bit dirty and they're not quite enough. Second match on the slightly hotter loads had me putting nearly 200 rounds downrange without a single issue. EVERY other gun, including a couple of JP GMRs, an MPX, a Scorp, and half a dozen 9mm frankenbuilds had their operators reaching for the charging handle at least once during the match. The poor guy with the brand new MPX had fits getting his to run. 

I did convert it to left-hand operation. The gun is 100% ambidextrous, but you do have to make liberal use of a full punch set to move the extractor, switch the charging handle, etc. in order to get it to eject out the left and charge from the right. 

Other things to note or fix if you're considering an X95 for PCC:

- Trigger. The X95 is loads better than the original Tavor, but it's still nowhere near what you get on any match-grade AR. Swapped the trigger mechanism for a Geissele Lighting Bow to remove the 15" of creep (that's what it felt like), and replaced the sear with a Geissele SS at 3.5 lbs. Goes from an 'OK for a bullpup' trigger to as good as anything out there. Pricey, but very worth it if you're trying to keep a dot on A zone squares at 15-20 yards while moving.  Don't get me wrong... stock trigger was slightly better than both the Scorp and MPX (shot both extensively while trying to decide which way to go), but it took the Geissele mods to get to feel close to my JP-15.  

- Replaced the butt plate with a Manticore arms curved plate. More comfortable shoulder seat, and moves the entire rifle nearly an inch back toward your shoulder without affecting the OAL. 

- Comp. Birdcage flash hider it comes with really makes it quiet... and that really sucks when you have to re-do a great stage run because the timer didn't pick up your shots. $30 comp from AP Manufacturing (looks like they copied the JP 2-chamber top ported brake) makes it loud again even with the subsonic ammo. It may even help a bit with muzzle rise, but it's subtle. There's not much gas for it to work with at the end of a 17" barrel. Aesthetically it looks way, way better IMHO.

- Magpul angled foregrip. With the foregrip so close to your body with the bullpup design your wrist is REALLY angled... much, much more so than out at the end of a 15" hand guard on a long AR. It gets uncomfortable, and you don't have much control unless you've got a beefy wrist (which I don't.) Angled grip made a huge comfort difference.

- Optic height over bore. Not much you can do about this, though I might try a larger fov holographic that sits closer to the rail than the MRO with a riser. Sighting in at 10 yards means a noticeable holdover at point-blank and noticeable hold-under at 20 yards. 

Very happy with it. Extremely well-built, fun to shoulder and shoot, and it just RUNS.  Pic post mods but without angled grip.  42 rnd magazine.

X95.thumb.jpg.2693201fef7262ed1186e41e67fb026e.jpg

Edited by NervousEnergy
screwed up pic placement - try 2
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9 hours ago, MrRick said:

I considered one when looking for a PCC but I was concerned with mag changes would take a bit more time that the typical PCC. 

If you've got a lot of AR/M4 muscle memory and you're right handed that can be an issue.  You'll certainly have to practice a different reach point, though the mags have gone in easy even without much of a flare on the magwell.

 

If you're a lefty, though, then I'd argue the Tavor has an advantage even considering relearning muscle memory.  I use a Troy ambi mag release on my JP-15, but to date I haven't seen anything for the AR9.  The big indent bar release doesn't seem to lend itself well to left-hand operation unless you make a dedicated left-hand 9mm lower.  The X95 release is truly ambidextrous, and it takes little pressure to get the mag to drop.  

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  • 3 weeks later...

One month comp report:

 

I've played three straight weekend USPSA matches and two weeknight defensive carbine matches with the X95, and I can't get enough.  I've only shot my G34 in weeknight IDPA matches, and I've switched my Cowtown registration from Production to PCC.  The fun factor is just off the scale.  I love this game in all it's iterations, don't get me wrong, but I'm almost giddy on match days when I know I can shoot the bullpup.  In the month I've played I've put right at 1200 rounds downrange, mostly comp shots but also a bit of range time sighting in and testing new components as they went on. 

 

Positives:

- Reliability.  This is the main reason I wanted to make this post.  PCC is getting more popular in the gaming scene here, and every match has a collection of AR9s, Scorps, and MPXs showing up, and even a few poor souls with Keltecs..  AR9s tend to be mostly JP GMR-13s, with a few hand built models.  Haven't seen the Wilson yet, though one guy I shoot with a lot has one on order.  EVERY ONE OF THESE GUNS HAS JAMMED IN EVERY MATCH.  *All of them.*  Some more than others, but I've either watched or asked every shooter I've seen at the matches how many times they've reached for their charging handles.  The GMRs and MPX's have had (by my very subjective observation) the most reaches for the handles.  Scorps seem to fair better.  Best not to talk about the Keltec.  In 5 matches and over a case downrange (cheap factory Speer subsonic 147) I've reached for the handle exactly *ONCE*.  If I was a better / faster shooter (I run slow), that fact alone would be decisive in terms of placement.  I simply can't say enough about the reliability of the X95. 

 

- Geissele trigger.  There seems to be a lot of experimentation and issues with AR triggers with a blowback bolt.  The Geissele SS and LB components, while pricey, put the feel almost identical to my JP-15 with the 3.5 lb JPFC trigger.  Reliability has been perfect.  At last week's USPSA match, a GMR 13 went down with a broken JPFC trigger.  I'm a big JP fan and this shocked me. 

 

- Maneuverability.  This depends on the stage designer.  One match was wide-open and it didn't matter much, but the other two had a bunch of portal stages, and the bullpup shined here.

 

- Reload speed.  With a 42 round TF extended mag, this is only an issue on classifier stages with a mandatory reload.  The flared magwell the gun comes with helps a TON, and the mags seat cleanly as long as you use a good bit of force.  After about 100 reps, the movement feels fast and simple.  I was never all that fast with an AR pattern reload, so I didn't have much muscle memory to unlearn.

 

Negatives:

 

- Optic height over bore.  This is something you really have to note with tight shots, as it's more extreme than any of the other platforms.  One of the stages in the first USPSA match I did had a barrel you had to crouch to shoot three poppers through, with one being a very tight angle.  Took the first two down, flicked the dot (MRO) to the third, fired, and nothing happened.  Fired again... nothing.  Then I noticed I'd just put two neat holes through the lower end curve of the barrel.  Rotated the gun and all was well.  Shooters experience with dealing with height over bore are probably rolling their eyes at this, and it was certainly a learning moment.  Cost me a good 6-7 seconds trying to figure out what was going on. 

 

- Recoil not as nice as MPX.  It's easily managed, of course, but I can fire faster and stay in the A zone at a 20 yard target with the MPX due to dot bounce.  This is something practice will likely improve, but you also can't argue with the physics.  Innovations in AR9 buffer design may leave the X95 behind in terms of shot split times.  I'm not a good enough shooter to really take advantage of that in a match stage, but I can feel the difference.

 

- Rifle racks.  Most of them at the bays are too damn tall.  :-(

 

Just hard to overstate how much fun I'm having with it, and with PCC games in general.  Not having to plan out production mag changes and having the stage plan go to hell when I have to do make up shots and forget the round count is liberating all on it's own.  Just run around the stage, hosing everything down and laughing maniacally while doing it (well... mentally, maybe.) 

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Damn one of my local gun shops has one of those for sale but I almost wrote  it off as being too damn expensive and too much I had to do with it to make it competitive but now you are talking me back into it... darn it, BE is too good at spending my money.

 

Can you comment on magazines, you mention the extension but have you tried other than factory magazines and had any issues or can you report that they are good?

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I ordered 4 IWI mags with the gun, so I haven't tried any non-factory magazines.  I'd bet money IWI is just OEM'ing them from Metalform, though, as they're identical right down to the same color follower.  Just the IWI stamp in the base.  The Taylor Freelance extension has worked perfectly, and I just ordered two more so I can spread the usage load around.  Much better and heavier than the TT extenders I use for my Glock mags, which tend to come apart about a third of the time I drop the mag if it's on a hard surface. 

 

The whole exercise is expensive, as you wind up with about a $2K gun if you put the Geissele trigger components and curved buttplate in, sans optic.  Several hundred more than the GMR-15, though still a bit cheaper than the Wilson.  Building your own way cheaper still, of course.  But the bullpup shape and very tight center of gravity make it way easier (IMHO) to run a tight, portal-filled course of fire with, and I'll keep praising the reliability till the gun stops being reliable.  Ran another 200 round steel match last night with it, and not a single issue.  And until there's more left AR9 lower options out there it's still way better (IMHO again) for a lefty. 

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Fantastic write up!  I too have a x95. I bought it planning on running it specifically for pcc.  I'm just waiting for some mags to come in.  

 

about the lightning bow trigger, how hard was it to install?  I have mine in the bag still, but I'm kind of a chicken when it comes to installing it. 

 

Also, what is your zero distance?  I've been told that 25 yards is the go to.  

 

Kg

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Not hard at all, and I'm in the same poultry camp as you are when it comes to taking apart new, unfamiliar, and expensive toys.  I know ARs very well, so dealing with a totally new design was intimidating.  There's an excellent 15 minute or so video on youtube (can't get to it at work or I'd link it... I'll look it up at home tonight) that perfectly details how to put it in.  He gives tons of commentary and details on how the parts work together while he talks, and he says, repeatedly, that all his commentary makes it sound way harder than it is.

 

He is not kidding.

 

It's a very simple trigger blade mechanism, and it'll be intuitively obvious how to replace it the instant you lay eyes on it.  Literally takes seconds.  Don't forget to take the little pin it comes with off and re-seat it through the hole in the pivot pin after the trigger is in to keep it from moving off-center... he goes over this multiple times.  The only issue is adjusting it, as you can't get much of a feel for how much travel is left with the gun sitting in pieces on your bench.  You've got to re-assemble it, test it, and possibly break it down again to continue fiddling with the set screw if you don't like the travel you left it with.  Make sure you get the barrel wrench, or devise a solid alternative. 

 

I'd rank the LB mod way above the much more expensive SS trigger pack in terms of impact on feel.  Taking out all the creep with the LB really shows the 5lb pull of the stock trigger.  The SS pack takes that down to a super-crisp 3.5#, but it's subtle compared to installing the LB.  I'm not good enough with it for that 1.5# difference to have any accuracy or split time impact. 

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  • 3 months later...

I shot PPC for the first time this weekend with a friend's MPX and loved it! Shot my first ever 100% classifier with it. Promptly went home and ordered a 9mm conversion kit for Tavor, so I'll let you know how it works out. Someone on Gunbroker has factory sampled conversion kits for $580.

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2 hours ago, Tampaxd45 said:

$1,800 + $750 for the conversion kit may have something to do with the lack of Tavors.  BTW I've shot a Tavor and I thought the balance was pretty poor..

^^ What he said.

 

Ive seen the 9mm Tavor in action. I realize that the 9mm blowback ARs have a bit more dot bounce and felt recoil than our tricked out ARs. But there seems to be a lot more barrel movement between shots with the Tavor. Too much weight towards the back end and nothing to help keep that muzzle down. Compounded by the fact that you aren't getting the benefit of a full reach for muzzle control and this setup looks squirrelly. 

Edited by v1911
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Once I priced out building a decent 9mm AR with QC10 receiver set and bolt ($1000+) I started exploring other options.  Some of us already own a Tavor, and kits are to be had on Gunbroker for $580; cheap way for me to get in to PCC and have fun.  On close-in work I find my Tavor swings target to target wayyy faster than an AR, in fact Miculek commented about it on one of his YouTube vids. To each his own I guess. 

Edited by Bill Schwab
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3 hours ago, Bill Schwab said:

Once I priced out building a decent 9mm AR with QC10 receiver set and bolt ($1000+) I started exploring other options.  Some of us already own a Tavor, and kits are to be had on Gunbroker for $580; cheap way for me to get in to PCC and have fun.  On close-in work I find my Tavor swings target to target wayyy faster than an AR, in fact Miculek commented about it on one of his YouTube vids. To each his own I guess. 

 

Bill - For reference, my complete PSA AR15 lower was $135, my Wilson Arms 7" upper was $405 including the CMMG ramped BCG, and my Spikes magwell was $135 so I have $675 in my 9mm AR and it has run flawlessly for 3+ years.  You do not need high priced exotic parts & hydraulic buffers to get into the AR9 game.

If I already had a Tavor then I would do exactly what you did.  It's all good.

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26 minutes ago, Tampaxd45 said:

 

Bill - For reference, my complete PSA AR15 lower was $135, my Wilson Arms 7" upper was $405 including the CMMG ramped BCG, and my Spikes magwell was $135 so I have $675 in my 9mm AR and it has run flawlessly for 3+ years.  You do not need high priced exotic parts & hydraulic buffers to get into the AR9 game.

If I already had a Tavor then I would do exactly what you did.  It's all good.

Nice, you played it well.  Yeah, I'm just looking to have fun, not win the PCC title or anything.

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I have 250 rounds through the 9mm Tavor.  I added an AP Manu comp. Gun already had Geissele Super Sabra in it, and gun does not have Lightning Bow.  It digested everything I threw at it, except for super light (and old) Norinco crap I had laying around.  The recoil characteristics feel better for 147 grain loads.  First shot times were not as slow as I expected (well under a second, can't recall specifics). Splits were low to mid teens at 7-10 yards, and transition times were in the 20's and 30's. Not bad for a gun I am fairly unfamiliar with. Unloaded table starts required some creativity, but my unorthodox solution seems to work (thanks for help Greg!). I suspect reloads will be slow, gotta practice them. Maneuvering the gun behind walls and barrels was slick due to its short length.

 

IMG_1543_zpsflblwtcm.jpg

Edited by Bill Schwab
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  • 2 weeks later...

I shot my x95 last weekend and had a great time. I didn't shoot 100% on the classifier like Bill did. However, I did shoot the highest percentage ever for me on a classifier. My bullpup is setup  as described by NervousEnergy. No problems with the gun running. I started with a dirty gun, added mobil one before the match.

 

I'm shooting 147 grain at approx 135PF. Same load I use in the G34 for production or VP9 for CO. I'm going to look into CFEPistol and coated bullets, that combination may work better in a 17" barrel.

 

Running factory magazines and the 20/32 round mags from ASC.

Edited by HitFactor
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  • 11 months later...

I drank the IWI Koolaid too after handling an X95 at NRA18.   I've got 500 rounds through mine.  Have not run it in a match yet.   It ran 100% at the local range with both 115gr supers and 147 subs.  I also ran it suppressed with both my Octane 9 and Tirant 9s (both on 3 lug mounts).  A few mods I did:

 

Mission First Tactical foregrip (scorched earth), 
Tros 3 lug adapter, 
Griffin Armament "Revolution" 3-lug muzzle brake,
Eotech EXPS3, 
Manticore Arms, Inc. ejection port gasket, (this is a must have if you run it suppressed)
Manticore Arms angled buttstock,
Geissele Automatics, LLCLightning Bow & Suber Sabra trigger pack)

ASC Mags (they make the OEM IWI Mags) with TF +10 base pads.

 

 

Tavor X95.jpg

Edited by GSonnen
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  • 1 month later...

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