Rules

[motosapiens]

Well, call me an iconoclast, but I think that going strictly by the rulebook at a local match is less important than having a fair and fun match, especially in winter time when snow and ice and cold temps create challenges and lack of patience. We stick to the rules as much as possible, but if it comes down to throwing out a stage that is otherwise fun, or just shooting it and learning from the experience, and saving an hour of everyone's time, we don't stress about it.

 

I constantly hear the issue about steel calibration and crap like that. With all respect due to the very knowledgeable RO's that have posted in this thread, it is my opinion that a stage RO is perfectly within the rules to call an REF and re-shoot on a popper that is obviously screwed up. I've seen it happen at enough area and national matches that I don't worry if the situation comes up at a local match. We do the right thing and move on.

 

But yeah, some rules we have less tolerance on.

[Southpaw]

Asking this question on this forum isn't going to give you an accurate idea of the general USPSA membership's view on this.  In my experience at least, most of the people at local matches really don't care if some of the rules aren't followed exactly (or sometimes even blatantly broken).  While most of the folks posting on this forum like to follow the rules 100%, or very close to it.

[IL-SIG]

So how exactly does one choose which rules to follow 100% and which rules really aren't that big of a deal?  As stated earlier, either follow the rules 100% or don't call your match a USPSA match.  All competitors should expect to know exactly what the rules are, even if it is a shooter's first time at a particular local match.

 

When local matches aren't conducted completely within the rules, you are doing your competitors a significant dis-service.  I have been asked before at major matches "are you only doing that (i.e., enforcing a rule) because this is a major.  My local range doesn't do that."  That is very unfortunate.  I have seen competitors DQ'd and respond that isn't how the rule is enforced at their local range.  We owe it to all competitors to run USPSA matches the same.  For example, what if some local matches choose to set up Classifiers "a little" different to aid their local shooters?  Who gets do decide which are important rules to follow? 

 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[Onepocket]

1 hour ago, IL-SIG said:

So how exactly does one choose which rules to follow 100% and which rules really aren't that big of a deal?  As stated earlier, either follow the rules 100% or don't call your match a USPSA match.  All competitors should expect to know exactly what the rules are, even if it is a shooter's first time at a particular local match.

 

When local matches aren't conducted completely within the rules, you are doing your competitors a significant dis-service.  I have been asked before at major matches "are you only doing that (i.e., enforcing a rule) because this is a major.  My local range doesn't do that."  That is very unfortunate.  I have seen competitors DQ'd and respond that isn't how the rule is enforced at their local range.  We owe it to all competitors to run USPSA matches the same.  For example, what if some local matches choose to set up Classifiers "a little" different to aid their local shooters?  Who gets do decide which are important rules to follow? 

 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

+1

[uod]

 

If someone doesn't think the rules are being 100% followed at a match --- I would suggest that the person become a RO or CRO and assist in the matches in such a way as to make sure that everyone is following the rules.

[konkapot]

Alternatively they could focus on their own compliance with the safety rules....and not getting DQ'd.

[Onepocket]

Lol, awfully defense Konkapot about a blanket question.  

[bret]

all rules should be followed at all matches, if not what is the point?

 

everyone shooting the match and stages shoukd have the same stage, same opportunity to shoot the match on a level playing field as everyone else.

 

when rules are ignored or made up to accommodate shooters, you are screwing over all the other Shooters that followed the rules.

 

the rule book is very clear on most things, there is some area's such as significant advantage that is open to interpretation, but other than that, the rules are very clear, and it's my opinion they should be followed, otherwise it's not a uspsa match.

[Nik Habicht]

My goal is to get to 100% at every match I'm involved with.  Running a club match for five years, and being involved in the running of another, we got there a lot of the time, and we got close for a lot of the matches where we didn't make it.....

 

There are a handful of stages that I remember, that were ~ 50-60%, even considering the limited Level 1 match exemptions -- we tried really hard to call those fairly and consistently, and to learn from the problems, so we could avoid repeating that particular mistake.....

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

My goal is to get to 100% at every match I'm involved with.  Running a club match for five years, and being involved in the running of another, we got there a lot of the time, and we got close for a lot of the matches where we didn't make it.....

 

There are a handful of stages that I remember, that were ~ 50-60%, even considering the limited Level 1 match exemptions -- we tried really hard to call those fairly and consistently, and to learn from the problems, so we could avoid repeating that particular mistake.....

 

Good post. The bottom line is that stuff happens at local matches, and you have to adapt and overcome, particularly wrt to REF, weather conditions, prop failures, etc... 

 

Of course there is no excuse for disregarding any safety rule, or intentionally setting up a classifier improperly.

 

What I wonder is which specific rules are people worried about not being followed 100%.

[RJH]

While I would love 100%, I am a realist and am ok with 100% safety and a little less than that otherwise.  Hell, I actually would be very happy with that, some of the local to me matches sometimes get a little too outlaw for my taste, but they are what is available and it is shoot them or don't shoot.  I will however complain when there is a stage that is way off the rules.  The main problem seems to be lack of knowledgeable help, but I live 100 miles away, so they will have to look elsewhere for that

[bret]

Rules should be enforced 100% of the time at all matches, especially the bigger matches.

 

If you run a match where some rules are bent, ignored or even made up, you lack credibility.

 

The shooters in the match should expect to shoot a fair match, if some rules are ignored, bent, made up, etc. you are screwing over everyone else shooting the match by not following the rules.

[Gary Stevens]

1 hour ago, bret said:

Rules should be enforced 100% of the time at all matches, especially the bigger matches.

 

If you run a match where some rules are bent, ignored or even made up, you lack credibility.

 

The shooters in the match should expect to shoot a fair match, if some rules are ignored, bent, made up, etc. you are screwing over everyone else shooting the match by not following the rules.

This.

 

To do less is doing a disservice to the shooter.

[David.Hylton]

On 2/8/2017 at 11:21 AM, motosapiens said:

 

Good post. The bottom line is that stuff happens at local matches, and you have to adapt and overcome, particularly wrt to REF, weather conditions, prop failures, etc... 

 

Of course there is no excuse for disregarding any safety rule, or intentionally setting up a classifier improperly.

 

What I wonder is which specific rules are people worried about not being followed 100%.

At all matches, safety can not be compromised. Neither can setting up classifiers. Getting someone hurt will do more to hurt the sport than anything.

 

However, for local matches we do make allowances for new shooters and equipment. If a new shooter shows up with the wrong holster set-up or other equipment issues we allow them to shoot - as long as it is safe. We also instruct them in the proper procedures and equipment standards and we will also coach more than is allowed.  New shooters are not exempt from safety rules and we have disqualified new shooters for safety violations. 

[perttime]

Safety and scoring must be 100%

I shoot IPSC, and there the official rules give low Level matches some leeway in matters of Match and Stage design, and required Match Official credentials - so that organizing a Match is less burdensome. For example: "Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements". Typically, that means that you can brief the shooters to shoot from boxes or certain positions, if you run out of screens needed for shooting when target is just visible.

[Poppa Bear]

I do not have a problem with expecting and enforcing 100% rules compliance for safety.  It is a little much to expect and enforce 100% compliance with stage design.  This is where we learn what went wrong and what we can do better.  At Level II and up non compliance will be either a Forbidden Action, a stage modification, or getting the stage tossed.  The F/A or stage modification might not get it 100% into compliance but it will be closer and safer, and we learn from it.  We have all seen or heard about stages getting tossed at Nationals because someone found a scoring/stage issue after multiple shooters have already completed the stage.  The one that comes to mind is a swinger that was totally hidden at rest but very available when moving that was not scored as a disappearing target.

 

At level I we do the best we can and use it as a learning experience for future stage designs.  If we got into the habit of tossing EVERY stage that was not 100% in compliance we would start ticking off all of the shooters who came for a match only to see a chunk of it thrown out and maybe see only 2 or 3 totally compliant stages being shot and scored.  We do our best to critique the stages during setup but this is also a time for some of the newer members to get some design experience.  We as clubs will not grow if we always have the same 2 or 3 people design all of the stages.  Fresh blood and fresh designs keep things interesting but we cannot expect perfection the first couple of times they design a stage.

[rhett45acp]

Years ago I drove 2.5 hours to shoot a USPSA match.  Two stages had 10 + 4" plates at 35 yards.   I was like What??   MD - We ran out of targets and this is more fun anyway.  Never went back, club is no longer affiliated.   I call this a self correcting problem. 

[teros135]

Well, duh!  4" plates aren't legal and 35 yds is dumb.  There's a lesson for us all...

[Sarge]

It is no harder to set up a legal stage than it is an illegal one.

[waktasz]

6 hours ago, teros135 said:

Well, duh!  4" plates aren't legal and 35 yds is dumb.  There's a lesson for us all...

 

There were 35 yard plates at the Maryland State match a couple years ago and that that was awesome. 

[teros135]

26 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

There were 35 yard plates at the Maryland State match a couple years ago and that that was awesome. 

 

We're they 35 yard 4-inch plates?

[waktasz]

No, legal plates. Just commenting that 35 yards isn't dumb.

[teros135]

22 minutes ago, waktasz said:

No, legal plates. Just commenting that 35 yards isn't dumb.

 

Agreed.  Just challenging  .

[rhett45acp]

Plates at 35 yards are no issue, but incorrect plates are an issue.  My point was the rules are there to align our sport at a local -> national level.   Could you imagine registering for a Level II 14 hours away, hotel and travel.  You get there and they tell you the 45acp is not allowed for it's considered > .401 caliber - range rules sorry.

 

The scenarios could go for pages. 

 

It also works in reverse.  Shooter is signed up SS and has a mag and pouch on the front of his belt right above the fly.  "He's told It's OK, its only a local match and only use it for emergency".  This goes on for 9 months at his local club, shooter gets gooder. Goes to big match, shoots a couple of stages - The right CRO sees his setup and welcome to open.  So who did this do a disservice too?

 

I try to follow the rules 100%, some say I am a bit to much of a follower.  But to err is human and I have failed more than once on the 100% myself.  I will give myself somewhat of a pass if it is ignorance, pointed out and corrected.  Not so much if it is intentional, I would loose sleep over such.

 

 

 

 

[mlm]

I shoot a lot of matches in South Texas. Have seen several where the MD isn't very knowledgeable  with the rules. Some of these clubs do not have enough cert RO or SO and when you are ready to shoot and have a question on the COF, and the answer is BS and doesn't have a rule to back it up, you need to pull out the rule book and just say that what you are doing is wrong. Have pulled out the rule book and have had to show someone that is just crap. lets fix it.

IMVHO

Mike