Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Failures w/ coated bullets


dbagwell

Recommended Posts

Last two times shooting, after approx. 100 shots, I begin to experience failures to go into battery when using red and blue coated bullets. Upon further inspection, the cartridge still plunks, but they're tight and won't spin freely. Then I noticed the first 2-3mm of the barrel show some buildup, not sure if it's carbon or bullet coating. The first 100 or so rounds are great! They pass plunk and spin on a clean barrel. I'm extremely happy with the performance of these bullets, but I need to resolve this issue ASAP. Any ideas???

 

FYI - G34 factory barrel, 147 gr, TG, mixed brass, 1.14" COAL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Bullets said:

Are you chamber checking every round? Are you not flaring enough and shaving the coating during seating?

No, I'm checking every round with a case gage. My bell is pretty generous and there's no evidence of shavings from the coating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Bullets said:

Are you chamber checking every round? Are you not flaring enough and shaving the coating during seating?

No, I'm checking every round with a case gage. My bell is pretty generous and there's no evidence of shavings from the coating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, 57K said:

For 147 gr. polycoated, try a cooler burning powder. If you know what's available locally, just check the Lyman data for loads that are near the top-end in pressure with a little more velocity than what you want for PF. TiteGroup is one of the hottest burning pistol propellants you can use at high pressure and with bullet weights progressing from 115, 125, 135 and 147, pressure is going to be higher with each successive bullet weight. Some you might want to try are N320, Vectan Ba 9 1/2, ZIP AA#2 or even W231/HP38 which are not quite as clean burning as the others. Those are all ball-types which I prefer over Flake powders, but you have options with flake as well like Bullseye, 700-X and Universal. Ball type powders are denser and almost always finer grained so metering will be a bit more uniform.

Are you suggesting that TG is too hot and/or dirty and that carbon fouling is the culprit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, BikerJon said:

I shoot a G19 and hundreds of hi-tek Bayou bullets and TG with no build up. I have never used a poly bullet. Do you get the buildup when using only the ACME ?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

 

 

 

Good idea...I have not shot the ACME bullets by themselves, but I'm planning too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rishii said:

I've shot thousands of blue bullets with titegroup, and never had a problem 

are you possibly over crimping and cutting the coating

Are you using a Glock?

 

I'm definitely not over crimping - I'm just removing the flare.  Finished outside diameter = 0.377"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, everything but a glock

With titegroup, smith 5906, 40 limited, a psa pcc, & sig p320

with my open gun I've shot thousands of 124s, and I'm currently shooting 115 close to 1500fps 

never had a had a problem blue bullets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few questions:

 

1 -- How often do you clean the pistol?

 

2 -- You said you could see buildup in the first few millimeters of the barrel.  Did you clean out that build-up to confirm or eliminate that as the problem? That would help narrow things.  You also want to make sure it isn't leading.

 

3 -- You said it isn't over-crimped and gave us a measurement.  Have you pulled a bullet and confirmed there is no crimp ring in the coating?  

 

4 -- Have you checked your dies to confirm the lock rings are still secure to the press? If they slip, the die can start to drift.

 

5 -- You told us that your bullets used to plunk and spin freely.  What you didn't tell us is what your max OAL was previously and how much you reduced that for your working OAL.  If you didn't do that process, if you just tried 1.14 and it plunked and spun fine, you could have been right at the raggedy edge of too long, and what you are experiencing is the result of the natural variation in your pull of the handle or in the length of the bullets themselves.  

 

6 -- You said it happened after 100-ish rounds twice.  If you cleaned it, there's no way you are going to get that sort of buildup from coating.  If you didn't clean it or gave it an easy once-over, then it was at the raggedy edge the whole time, and some cartridges are longer than others, and it found a few that were a hair too long.

 

If I were you, I would start from scratch.  I would clean that barrel and pistol and get it spotless, make sure all that build up is gone, then re-lube it.  Pay attention to that build up.  If it's lead, that will tighten up a polygonal barrel quick. Then I would run a new test with a dummy round and make sure of my precise maximum OAL without rifling engagement with that bullet.  Load one TOO long, then seat it shorter and shorter, like .005 at a time until it spins freely.  And I would re-check the crimp die.  Make sure you take the measurement right at the mouth. 

 

Basically, don't assume this is as simple as a bullet coating/powder problem.  If you make that assumption, and it's something else, you'll chase the problem a lot longer than necessary.

 

Reset and start from scratch to eliminate as many variables as possible, then go from there.  

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

A few questions:

 

My answers in bold:

 

1 -- How often do you clean the pistol?  I clean the pistol after every use.

 

2 -- You said you could see buildup in the first few millimeters of the barrel.  Did you clean out that build-up to confirm or eliminate that as the problem? That would help narrow things.  You also want to make sure it isn't leading.  Yes, when I clean the barrel the problem is eliminated and the cartridges will plunk and spin freely again.  I'm not sure if the buildup is coating, lead, carbon, etc.

 

3 -- You said it isn't over-crimped and gave us a measurement.  Have you pulled a bullet and confirmed there is no crimp ring in the coating?  Yes, I have and there aren't any visible indentations in the bullets.

 

4 -- Have you checked your dies to confirm the lock rings are still secure to the press? If they slip, the die can start to drift.  No, I will check that this evening.

 

5 -- You told us that your bullets used to plunk and spin freely.  What you didn't tell us is what your max OAL was previously and how much you reduced that for your working OAL.  If you didn't do that process, if you just tried 1.14 and it plunked and spun fine, you could have been right at the raggedy edge of too long, and what you are experiencing is the result of the natural variation in your pull of the handle or in the length of the bullets themselves.  I suppose I have never determined the max. I started with 1.15, which plunked, spun, fed through the magazine, etc., then decreased to 1.14 as part of my recipe development process.  

 

6 -- You said it happened after 100-ish rounds twice.  If you cleaned it, there's no way you are going to get that sort of buildup from coating.  If you didn't clean it or gave it an easy once-over, then it was at the raggedy edge the whole time, and some cartridges are longer than others, and it found a few that were a hair too long.  It was spotless both times, so I'm assuming that 1.14 and 1.15 maybe too close and I need to further reduce the OAL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, heck.  If they plunk and spin at 1.15, even if the unknown max were 1.151, 1.14 should be plenty reduced to keep all rounds out of the rifling unless your OAL varies wildly through a loading session, so I suspect that's not it.  You should still probably determine your maximums again with a clean barrel, and do it with both bullets anyway, though, as it is unlikely the two bullets will be the same, and they could be very different.  You should keep a record of that. 

 

Titegroup.  Titegroup caused problems with some early moly coatings, like Precision's, but Titegroup will not burn, melt, or otherwise damage Hi-Tek coating, which is what's on most coated lead these days.  Bayou imports it from Australia and sells to everyone else who wants it.  I don't know that Blue has ever commented on TG in regard to their proprietary coating, but I've loaded plenty of Blue with TG, and  I have not noticed this phenomenon with Blue and TG, in my Glock or my HK VP9, both of which have polygonal barrels.  

 

About Titegroup, I will say that it is filthy if you aren't running near max load, and it will dirty up a gun fast, but not so fast that you're going to get problems after 100 rounds.

 

Any chance you've just worn the bejeezus out of the recoil spring?

 

Also, once it starts, does it happen with Blues and ACME both?  Or just one of them?  If it is just one, you're loading one too long. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, IDescribe said:

Titegroup caused problems with some early moly coatings, like Precision's, but Titegroup will not burn, melt, or otherwise damage Hi-Tek coating, which is what's on most coated lead these days.  

ACME uses Hi-Tek, so I'm going to shoot the ACMEs only on a clean barrel and see what happens.

 

16 hours ago, IDescribe said:

Any chance you've just worn the bejeezus out of the recoil spring?

Nope, aftermarket guide rod and spring are like new.

 

16 hours ago, IDescribe said:

Also, once it starts, does it happen with Blues and ACME both?  Or just one of them?  If it is just one, you're loading one too long. 

I have never shot the Blue's and ACME's separately.  See above...that's next.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, 57K said:

Let's look at some facts. Almost all of the casting companies are using the Hi-Tek coating from Australia. Blue Bullet's has their own proprietary coating. Now, one might say that TiteGroup won't burn the coating away, but we do know that it burns hot enough to melt bullet lube where a good many folks have compalined for a long time about the smoke they get when using TiteGroup, as well as how hot their pistols become to the touch. If there is some intuitive information that proves it will not burn the poly coatings, mere opinions are hardly conclusive. I know, myself, I'd like to see some links to detailed documentation of the fact.

You definitely have my attention regarding the TG temp. I'm going to address this by a process of elimination.  First, shoot Hi-Tek coated bullets only to see if the problem re-occurs.  If so, I have some HP38/W231 that I can experiment with.  I will have to see what other powders are available to me locally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I shoot Blues with TG, 3.7 for a 171PF.  The Blues are completely coated so the only way you are getting build up (leading) anywhere would be by over crimping them.  That goes for any coated lead.  Shoot steel and go look at the ground, find a Blue Bullet you shot, the polymer is still on the lead. I've shot 1000 in 2 days, no build up other than carbon/burnt powder etc....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, JDshooter said:

Blues are completely coated so the only way you are getting build up (leading) anywhere would be by over crimping them. 

 

Does that mean that the coating is being scraped away by over crimping, which exposes the lead and melts it when fired?

 

I have pulled seated bullets and do not see any evidence of exposed lead.  Are there other clues that would point to over crimping?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/31/2017 at 0:31 PM, dbagwell said:

  First, shoot Hi-Tek coated bullets only to see if the problem re-occurs.

 

Precisely what I'd do. Shoot 200 of one, clean the gun, then 200 of the other. Checking regularly, you should isolate which one causes your issue and verify that the other one is trouble free.

 

I do not expect you to see this issue with both brands.

 

On 1/31/2017 at 0:31 PM, dbagwell said:

If so, I have some HP38/W231 that I can experiment with. 

 

Don't worry about hunting other powders yet. Once you know if ACME or Blues are the source of your problems, load them with a safe midrange load from your manuals with 231. It's a well-established powder for trouble free use in coated 9mm loads.

 

If that fixes your issue with one of your bullets? You can decide if you want to hunt down another faster-burning powder to get your loads softer than they were with titegroup... or just sell the problematic bullets and stick with TG.

 

(I'm by no means a fan of Titegroup. WST, N320, and Nobel's Prima V are all great powders under coated bullets that shoot softer than TG and do everything else better to boot. But TG is popular, and plenty of shooters do very well with it.)

Edited by MemphisMechanic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sounds like a pretty odd case!  I hope you're making progress on it.

 

I will say, I've gone through a whole bunch of TG and a whole bunch of coated SNS bullets without issue.  I've shot some through a glock, but they are mainly out of M&P's and a P320 recently.

 

My load is:

3.2 gr TG

147 gr LFP SNS bullet

mixed brass

Winchester primer

1.13" OAL

~142 PF

 

I've shot thousands of these with a pretty relaxed cleaning schedule (twice a year, maybe).  No issues to report.

 

I'll agree that TG can be smoky with coated bullets.  The only time I've ever had an issue with it is shooting indoors using a flashlight.  Without good ventilation, the smoke can get kind of stagnant.  Outdoors I have had no issues with smoke and the SNS coating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Edmooberry said:

My load is:

3.2 gr TG

147 gr LFP SNS bullet

mixed brass

Winchester primer

1.13" OAL

~142 PF

Would you mind sharing your crimp O.D.?  I've been crimping to 0.377", but I'm wondering if this is too tight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, rishii said:

If there is a ring around the bullet that is caused by the crimp, then you're over crimping the bullet

 

I pulled some more last night and I do see a ring (indentation in the coating), so I'm suspecting that I'm crimping too much.

 

I don't understand what effect that has though.  Can anyone explain?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...