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NEW SCSA Rules ?


hornetx40

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20 hours ago, jkrispies said:

Explain.

 

This was in response to when I said "Nope" to jkrispies' first comment, which was:
"Regarding the question of power factor, it is the same as USPSA by default because hits on steel are always counted as an "A"."
 

In USPSA, a hit on steel only counts as an A if the steel falls---which is the entire point of power factor (at least a minimum power factor).    Mere hits don't count.  The gun/round combination must produce at least a certain minimum power factor or the steel won't fall.

 

In Steel Challenge, this is not true, and many people use gun/round combinations that are significantly less than said USPSA power factor.  And in Steel Challenge, that's perfectly fine.

 

So no, "power factor" in Steel Challenge and USPSA are not the same, as Steel Challenge doesn't have any sort of power factor requirement, and USPSA does--where said power factor requirement is relevant as mere hits on steel are NOT always counted as a A-hit.

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22 hours ago, Tom E said:

I'll bet you don't shoot rimfire. Interesting how that position comes from those who don't.

 

I shoot rimfire.  :) Occasionally.

 

I actually prefer the "finger outside the trigger" start to the "finger off the trigger" start, for a minor and a major reason.

Minor reason:  Safety is a thing...because we've had someone at a match light one off before the beep.  Luckily, the REST of the safety rules were followed, and it was downrange in a safe direction.  Nonetheless, being able to have the finger in the trigger guard prior to the start signal when the gun was loaded, and with people thinking it was a significant advantage (whether it is or not) meant that people were trying to get their finger as close to the trigger as possible without actually touching it, and so on.  Additionally, if everyone starts outside the trigger guard, you don't have people (especially newer folks) trying to find a place to put their finger right next to the trigger that won't have them startle-jerk a round into the ground closer than 10 feet on the beep.  Sure, they are supposed to be starting pointed at a 2' tall flag 10 feet away, which means they shouldn't drop a shot closer than 10 feet, but.....it has happened.  Matter of fact, weren't YOU the RO who came to talk to me about that?  :)  Outside the trigger guard makes that less likely, without actually changing much of anything else about the match.

 

Major reason:  It is a lot simpler for the RO to see that the shooter is in the proper start position with the finger outside the trigger guard.  I don't want to have to look closely at every shooter to see if there is a 1/16" gap between their finger and the trigger guard, but I don't want people starting with their finger on the trigger either.  It doesn't make any difference to the ability of the shooter to complete the stage, nor does it slow them down.

 

So, minor increased safety, and makes the RO job a LOT easier.  I much prefer the "finger outside the trigger guard" start for .22 pistol, .22 rifle, and PCC.

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i haven't looked at the rule book in detail about this but does it really NOT say that target height is "as seen from the shooting box" or something similar?

 

Zack:  if this is true I think it needs to be addressed in the rules.  In all the majors I've shot I don't recall seeing stages where the target heights were not all the same for the same type of plate so I think its being done.  However, there's no way to tell if those heights were based on 5' & 5.5' at the shooting box or not ...

 

As a MD I am very conscious of this issue that has been pointed out, particularly since my target stands are rectangular pipe buried in the ground.  When we went to this system we surveyed each stage & the 2x4s were cut specifically for the one target & then marked.  We maintain a spreadsheet with the length of every target of every stage so that when one gets shot up we simply grab a 2x4, consult the spreadsheet & then cut it to the proper length.  We also have a small collection of pre cut & marked 2x4s for the targets which routinely need to be replaced ... this does require that we keep dirt out of the holes so the heights don't change but the system works very well to ensure the stages are setup correctly.

I would not want to see what my stages would look like if I simply setup a bunch of 5' & 5.5' 2x4s in target stands in the bays ... as an example, to get the appropriate height as seen standing in the shooting box, I have 2x4s for some the 18" x 24" rectangular plates that are only in the low 50"s due to how much some of my bays slope up due to erosion at the back berm ...

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The problem with this is that most ranges have bays that are all different (and not only elevate front to back, but also aren't necessarily level from side to side), and people run different stages in each bay at different times--and with other sports running in the same bays so things need to be put away and taken out again later), most places just won't be able to easily make all the heights perfect for every match.  Requiring the targets to be perfectly level and exact seems like a bad idea to me.

 

And if I recall correctly, the new rulebook does say that using a level or something similar to make the target heights correct is preferred, but it is understood that sometimes it doesn't work out.

 

Given that even on the nearest plates (at 21 feet) 4.4" inches of height difference is only one degree of elevation...makes me wonder how much difference people think it makes?  I mean, on Pendulum the plates could be a whole foot higher and it would STILL only be one degree worth of elevation.

 

Sure, if a bay makes it four feet higher on the back plates of Roundabout, there's an issue.  But, in the vast majority of cases, how much elevation are people worried about, that they think will make a difference?

 

 

 

 

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:24 AM, hornetx40 said:

 

Any changes in elevation of targets from one club to the next defeats the whole purpose of setting the stages the same all over the country. They need to be the same to have a fair classification system.

 

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13 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

This was in response to when I said "Nope" to jkrispies' first comment, which was:
"Regarding the question of power factor, it is the same as USPSA by default because hits on steel are always counted as an "A"."
 

In USPSA, a hit on steel only counts as an A if the steel falls---which is the entire point of power factor (at least a minimum power factor).    Mere hits don't count.  The gun/round combination must produce at least a certain minimum power factor or the steel won't fall.

 

In Steel Challenge, this is not true, and many people use gun/round combinations that are significantly less than said USPSA power factor.  And in Steel Challenge, that's perfectly fine.

 

So no, "power factor" in Steel Challenge and USPSA are not the same, as Steel Challenge doesn't have any sort of power factor requirement, and USPSA does--where said power factor requirement is relevant as mere hits on steel are NOT always counted as a A-hit.

Good point.  I hadn't considered the fact that SC plates aren't calibrated the way they are in USPSA.  Personally, I'd like to see a 125 minimum power factor in SC, but I also know that isn't going to happen.  

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Targets height variation can play a pretty big factor in perceived height actually. You have to take into consideration people of different heights to really see the difference. For someone 5'6"-5'10" let's say (since that's probably the average height of the normal shooter), small variations in height won't be noticed. Take someone that is 4'6" or 6'4" and those small changes in height make a big difference, especially on the closer targets. For me, sitting in a wheelchair, the closer stages like roundabout have more height variation than pendulum. 

 

Does it matter in the whole scheme of things? No. Might it matter a tenth here or there, yes. But just like the rest of the arguments in this thread, the best shooters are still going to be the fastest, and the others are going to make excuses.

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9 hours ago, Tom E said:

[he was quoting hornetx40]  "Any changes in elevation of targets from one club to the next defeats the whole purpose of setting the stages the same all over the country. They need to be the same to have a fair classification system. "

 

Do we use a laser level for all USPSA classifiers with respect to target height every month?  :)

 

(Yes, I know we do for the one for the Sectional, but THAT particular shooting area has a ridiculous amount of incline.)

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For some reason quoting isn't working properly for me but this is to address target height.

 

In an older version of the rules it said the target height was set relative to the shooting box using a transom. Our current (2013 edition) states "All round targets, except for the Pendulum are 5' high to the top of the target and all rectangles are 5'6? to the top of the target. Pendulum has two round targets that are 6’ to the top of the target." which doesn't specify from where it's measured. I know certain matches set target height from the shooting box and others don't. I don't for our matches because I don't run the same stage in the same bay every month. If I had the ability to do that I probably would.

 

At US Steel Nationals Karl from GT Targets is setting up the stages and I know he intents to set target height relative to the shooting box. At WSSC they use metal stands so setting height relative to the shooting box would be extremely difficult to accomplish. In the current draft of the rules I have the following 

 

"All round targets, except for the Pendulum are 5' high to the top of the target and all rectangles are 5'6” to the top of the target. Pendulum has two round targets that are 6’ to the top of the target. Note: Use of a transom or laser level from the shooting box is encouraged, but not required."

 

I suppose that should be clarified a bit to say the purpose is to set the target height relative to the shooting box. 

 

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4 hours ago, ZackJones said:

"All round targets, except for the Pendulum are 5' high to the top of the target and all rectangles are 5'6” to the top of the target. Pendulum has two round targets that are 6’ to the top of the target. Note: Use of a transom or laser level from the shooting box is encouraged, but not required."

 

I suppose that should be clarified a bit to say the purpose is to set the target height relative to the shooting box. 

 

 

Doing it this way makes sense to me.  Preferred, but not required.

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All round targets, except for the Pendulum are 5' high to the top of the target and all rectangles are 5'6” to the top of the target. Pendulum has two round targets that are 6’ to the top of the target.

 

Use of a transit, laser level or similar method is encouraged for setting target heights. Targets heights are relative to the shooting box.

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6 hours ago, ZackJones said:

For some reason quoting isn't working properly for me but this is to address target height.

 

In an older version of the rules it said the target height was set relative to the shooting box using a transom. Our current (2013 edition) states "All round targets, except for the Pendulum are 5' high to the top of the target and all rectangles are 5'6? to the top of the target. Pendulum has two round targets that are 6’ to the top of the target." which doesn't specify from where it's measured. I know certain matches set target height from the shooting box and others don't. I don't for our matches because I don't run the same stage in the same bay every month. If I had the ability to do that I probably would.

 

At US Steel Nationals Karl from GT Targets is setting up the stages and I know he intents to set target height relative to the shooting box. At WSSC they use metal stands so setting height relative to the shooting box would be extremely difficult to accomplish. In the current draft of the rules I have the following 

 

"All round targets, except for the Pendulum are 5' high to the top of the target and all rectangles are 5'6” to the top of the target. Pendulum has two round targets that are 6’ to the top of the target. Note: Use of a transom or laser level from the shooting box is encouraged, but not required."

 

I suppose that should be clarified a bit to say the purpose is to set the target height relative to the shooting box. 

 

 

Karl is using a Transit Level, I know this because I am sending him mine to use at the match.  He knows how to use it. Zack I would suggest you have someone walk around and write down the length of each 2x4 before the match starts so you will know what replacement stick lengths should be when they get shot off.

On  a separate note setting the stages  should be a requirement not a suggestion. 

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21 minutes ago, hornetx40 said:

 

Karl is using a Transit Level, I know this because I am sending him mine to use at the match.  He knows how to use it. Zack I would suggest you have someone walk around and write down the length of each 2x4 before the match starts so you will know what replacement stick lengths should be when they get shot off.

On  a separate note setting the stages  should be a requirement not a suggestion. 

 

It won't be a requirement but it will be encouraged. I'm very interested in working with Karl as he does the setup to see a Transit level is used. 

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Zack they are simple to use. The critical part is getting the scope set at 60" above the shooting box and leveling the scope. It has to be perfectly level or you will not get the targets right.

You can find Transit levels used on Craig's list all the time from contractors going out of business unfortunately.

If you set your home range and mark the target positions you will only have to do it once. 

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At a level 1 match I don't think requiring it would be a good idea as it might dampen participation. Half the time I am happy if they have it setup correctly. But it should be encouraged.

 

But at level 2 or above, yeah it should be level to the box and adjusted for terrain.

Edited by PPGMD
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9 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

Zack they are simple to use. The critical part is getting the scope set at 60" above the shooting box and leveling the scope. It has to be perfectly level or you will not get the targets right.

You can find Transit levels used on Craig's list all the time from contractors going out of business unfortunately.

If you set your home range and mark the target positions you will only have to do it once. 

I've seen them at pawn shops as well. I will have a much better understanding of them after Steel Nationals and working with Karl.

 

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On 2/13/2017 at 4:59 PM, hornetx40 said:

 

If you set your home range and mark the target positions you will only have to do it once. 

 

Well, that would be true if you can see the dirt of your home range more than 6 months out of the year, or don't run a snow plow over the bay, nicely scraping any kind of anchor flags or other embedded objects out of the way.  We're not going to let a little snow and ice prevent us from running a match - so we will do our best to get things set up straight and square, but marking things once and done isn't going to work.  Yea, shooting in Alaska has it's challenges :)  

For level 1 matches, encouraged but not required works for me.  

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On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:22 AM, Tom E said:

 

It was that way. Not any more. You just got a classification system up and running in SCSA. Just like USPSA and others.

Well there has been a classification system in SC for awhile. It just covered the centerfire divisions and was not broken out for Open or Limited or whatever. And those of us who shot mainly rimfire had no system to compare us to the pros who shot that as part of Steel Master or whatever. In the meantime SCSA decided to do a classification system for every division and then added rimfire and PCC to that as I understand it happened. Many divisions happened because shooters from other disciplines wanted to shoot without having a handicap built in from different holster rules. I see no problem with that. The top shooters can overcome the holster differences with no problem. The rest of us do the best we can. I have shot SS in SC before with a gun I routinely CC a lot. I just swap my IWB holster for one that fits the rules. As for us rimfire guys having a classification system seems to be showing a large increase in rimfire shooters at the big events.

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  • 2 months later...

Is there a list of divisions out there for Steel Challenge ?

I looked at the website and looks like the new rules are not posted.

Went to the fb link and it looks like it hasn't been used since 2013 :blink:

(I could be wrong though as I don't use the facebook very well)

 

Thanks for any help

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1 hour ago, 10mmdave said:

Is there a list of divisions out there for Steel Challenge ?

I looked at the website and looks like the new rules are not posted.

Went to the fb link and it looks like it hasn't been used since 2013 :blink:

(I could be wrong though as I don't use the facebook very well)

 

Thanks for any help

Cut and pasted from the World Speed Shoot entry form:

 

Carry Optics

Iron Sight Revolver

Limited

Open

Optical Sight Revolver

Pistol Caliber Carbine Irons

Pistol Caliber Carbine Open

Production

Rimfire Pistol Irons

Rimfire Pistol Open

Rimfire Rifle Irons

Rimfire Rifle Open

Single Stack

 

 

 

Edited by jkrispies
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9 hours ago, jkrispies said:

Cut and pasted from the World Speed Shoot entry form:

 

Carry Optics

Iron Sight Revolver

Limited

Open

Optical Sight Revolver

Pistol Caliber Carbine Irons

Pistol Caliber Carbine Open

Production

Rimfire Pistol Irons

Rimfire Pistol Open

Rimfire Rifle Irons

Rimfire Rifle Open

Single Stack

Thanks jkrispies, after asking the question I searched some more and found a draft copy of the rules sent out awhile ago,

here's a cut & paste from that below:

 

A2 Rimfire Pistol: Open to any pistol firing .22 Long Rifle ammunition (see “ammunition” rule 4.1.2).
There are two equipment divisions:
A2.1 Rimfire Open: This is the Rimfire race division. All legal Rimfire firearms are allowed. Optics and
Compensators are specifically allowed.
A2.1.2 Rimfire Iron Sights: Any Iron-sighted Rimfire pistols without a compensator, barrel ports or optic
sights. Fiber-optic sight inserts are specifically allowed.
A3 Rimfire Rifle: Open to any rifle shooting .22 Long Rifle ammunition. There are two equipment

divisions:
A3.1 Rimfire Rifle Open: This is the Rimfire rifle race division. All legal Rimfire rifles are allowed. Optics
and Compensators are specifically allowed.
A3.2 Rimfire Rifle Iron Sights: Any Iron-sighted Rimfire rifle without a compensator, barrel ports or optic
sights. Fiber-optic sight inserts are specifically allowed.
A4 Pistol Caliber Carbine: Open to carbines shooting pistol caliber cartridges (9mm/.40 S&W/ .357 Sig /
.45 ACP). There are two equipment divisions:
A4.1 Pistol Caliber Carbine Open: This is the Pistol Caliber Carbine race division. All legal Pistol Caliber
Carbines, to include short barreled rifles, are allowed. Optics and Compensators are specifically allowed.
A4.2 Pistol Caliber Carbine Iron Sights: Any iron-sighted rifle without compensator, barrel ports or optic
sights. Fiber-optic inserts are specifically allowed.
A3 CenterFire Pistol: Any pistol firing (9mm/.38 Special) or larger ammunition (see “ammunition” rule
4.1.1). This event has multiple equipment divisions as follows.
Draft Version 1.1, 23 November 2016 – All previous versions are Obsolete
Page 20 of 42
A3.1 Open: This is the race division! All legal firearms are allowed. Optics, Compensators, and any safe
holster/position are specifically allowed.
A3.2 Limited: Any iron-sighted pistol without a compensator, barrel ports, or optical sight. Fiber optic
inserts are specifically allowed.
A3.3 Production: Any double action or safe action pistol on the USPSA Production gun list. Holsters must
follow USPSA Handgun Rules for the Production Division.
A3.5 Single Stack: 1911 models only. Holsters must follow USPSA Handgun Rules for the Single Stack
Division.
A3.6 Revolver: Any revolver can be used for competition. Fiber optic inserts are specifically allowed. No
barrel length or holster restrictions. No restrictions for maximum rounds.
A3.6.1 Optic Sight Revolver: A revolver equipped with Electronic / Optical Sights.
A 3.6.2 Iron Sight Revolver: A revolver equipped with iron sights. Fiber optic inserts are specifically
allowed.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 4 weeks later...

I thought the rule was, or had changed to, finger outside the trigger guard with rimfire start position.  I was informed this weekend that was not so.  Current rules at the SC website say finger off the trigger.  Has this changed or did I get confused by some discussion of it?

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22 minutes ago, Pasley said:

I thought the rule was, or had changed to, finger outside the trigger guard with rimfire start position.  I was informed this weekend that was not so.  Current rules at the SC website say finger off the trigger.  Has this changed or did I get confused by some discussion of it?

The new rules aren't officially published yet.  Once they are released into the wild, it will be outside the trigger guard.  

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