hornetx40 Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Zack I think you have the right idea. Let em put the holsters where they want..(At Least for open)....as far as safety is concerned ...It must cover the trigger guard, the gun can not point at the body or break the 180. Other than that I don't see what else would be needed. I don't shoot limited or SS so I don't want to speak to those divisions I didn't leave the conversation just missing for a few days while moving. Finally got my cable back up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 So returning to the thesis that SC doesn't need to (dare I say should not) look like USPSA; what's the real point of having all those center fire match divisions? 3 of the 4 matches in a SC event already just have 2 divisions (iron & optic) and no other equipment restrictions. yes, there is no draw so holsters are not an issue but are we going to claim that it's the holster which makes each division unique? why don't we just simply the main match and go with just 2 divisions like the other 3 matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, Nimitz said: yes, there is no draw so holsters are not an issue but are we going to claim that it's the holster which makes each division unique? I said I'm done, I said I'm done, I said I'm done, I said I'm done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 35 minutes ago, Nimitz said: why don't we just simply the main match and go with just 2 divisions like the other 3 matches? Here's why... On 2/4/2017 at 0:09 PM, mosher said: also, consider if you go to just irons and optics, the unintended side affect is you are going to lose income at majors. right now I go to majors I sign up to shoot three guns, limited, production, and single stack. You change that to irons and optics and say I can only shoot once each division I am now restricted to one gun instead of three and you just lost out on entry fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Require two relays to win the division, aggregate of 16 stages with the same gun. That might actually get more entries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 i've always thought that steel challenge rules should be totally identical to uspsa rules (range commands, safety, guns and mods, gear and placement and capacity, etc). lose the power factor and have to add language for rimfires. lots of folks play both games so why have any differences creating confusion, and if the rules are the same for everyone, that shouldn't be a problem. sure i'm missing some issues but consistency vs inconsistency would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Relax the holster rules. There's no reason for anything more than "on the belt" and "covers the trigger". USPSA, IDPA etc division legal holsters would still be legal and that will allow those who aren't USPSA, IDPA etc shooters to run what they brung. There are enough divisions that there's one their gun will be legal in, don't exclude shooters for want of a holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 13 hours ago, davsco said: i've always thought that steel challenge rules should be totally identical to uspsa rules (range commands, safety, guns and mods, gear and placement and capacity, etc). lose the power factor and have to add language for rimfires. lots of folks play both games so why have any differences creating confusion, and if the rules are the same for everyone, that shouldn't be a problem. sure i'm missing some issues but consistency vs inconsistency would be nice. This^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conditionone Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 20 hours ago, davsco said: i've always thought that steel challenge rules should be totally identical to uspsa rules (range commands, safety, guns and mods, gear and placement and capacity, etc). lose the power factor and have to add language for rimfires. lots of folks play both games so why have any differences creating confusion, and if the rules are the same for everyone, that shouldn't be a problem. sure i'm missing some issues but consistency vs inconsistency would be nice. This ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) On 2/9/2017 at 8:47 AM, davsco said: i've always thought that steel challenge rules should be totally identical to uspsa rules (range commands, safety, guns and mods, gear and placement and capacity, etc). lose the power factor and have to add language for rimfires. lots of folks play both games so why have any differences creating confusion, and if the rules are the same for everyone, that shouldn't be a problem. sure i'm missing some issues but consistency vs inconsistency would be nice. And quit using timers and just give everyone a participation trophy. With all the divisions and then breaking them by classification you're close to that now. About the only thing you're not doing is having height breaks, 2" increments ok? So, you're SS, C, 5'8" to 5'10", senior. At what point is this just ridiculous? What about magazine/moonclip/speedloader placement on the belt? That should get close scrutiny too? If a holster rule that says it has to be on the belt and cover the trigger confuses you (I'd think it's simpler, particularly for the RO) I have to wonder how you find your way to the range... Edited February 10, 2017 by Tom E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Tom E said: And quit using timers and just give everyone a participation trophy. With all the divisions and then breaking them by classification you're close to that now. About the only thing you're not doing is having height breaks, 2" increments ok? So, you're SS, C, 5'8" to 5'10", senior. At what point is this just ridiculous? If a holster rule that says it has to be on the belt and cover the trigger confuses you (I'd think it's simpler, particularly for the RO) I have to wonder how you find your way to the range... did you quote the wrong post? all i said was have consistent rules between two similar games run by the same organization. and as an aside i could care less about classifications, i always compare myself against the best shooter, not just people as old, fat, slow and blind as myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) If you want the rules to be consistent then we should require the same power factor in steel challenge. Also, get rid of the rimfires. To be clear; I think the holster rules are stupid in both sports. Edited February 10, 2017 by Pasley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 32 minutes ago, davsco said: did you quote the wrong post? all i said was have consistent rules between two similar games run by the same organization. I just quoted your post, as did others, and classification is clearly part of USPSA, IDPA etc rules. I agree with you about the classification system that seems precious to many. Rules are necessary but rules should be simple, clear, concise, and as few as possible. Creating a set of rules that uses but modifies another set of rules is usually a nightmare. KISS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Pasley said: If you want the rules to be consistent then we should require the same power factor in steel challenge. Regarding the question of power factor, it is the same as USPSA by default because hits on steel are always counted as an "A". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 17 hours ago, jkrispies said: Regarding the question of power factor, it is the same as USPSA by default because hits on steel are always counted as an "A". Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornetx40 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 I don't know why people think USPSA and SCSA should follow the same rules. The two sports are totally different. Just because you don't want to spend the money to build a gun specific to each sport doesn't mean the rules should be changed. Shoot what you have that fits the divisions or buy/build it and quit whining about it. Some rues do need to be added back into the rule book and most of the changes are good ....Like the rimfire rule for no finger inside the trigger guard.... Would you go to an IDPA match and demand the rules be changed so your gun or holster set up fits a division you want to shoot it in. NO You shoot the division your equipment fits. Just because USPSA now owns SCSA doesn't mean they should be the same. As far as the classification system, it is a good thing. It lets the competitors compare themselves to others on an even basis. The only problem is the rules don't state that all targets be 60" high at the center of the plate as shot from the shooting box. (except Pendulum) The problem is when a range is flat they will look correct but when the elevation changes even a foot the targets will not appear as the should. I have shot ranges where we had to dig into a hill side to set a target only inches off the ground to get it set at the right height from the shooting box because the range elevated that much. If you just set all the targets 5 ft off the ground and don't account for the change in elevation then the stage won't be correct. Any changes in elevation of targets from one club to the next defeats the whole purpose of setting the stages the same all over the country. They need to be the same to have a fair classification system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 25 minutes ago, hornetx40 said: most of the changes are good ....Like the rimfire rule for no finger inside the trigger guard.... I'll bet you don't shoot rimfire. Interesting how that position comes from those who don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Thomas H said: Nope. Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 2 hours ago, hornetx40 said: As far as the classification system, it is a good thing. It lets the competitors compare themselves to others on an even basis. The only problem is the rules don't state that all targets be 60" high at the center of the plate as shot from the shooting box. (except Pendulum) The problem is when a range is flat they will look correct but when the elevation changes even a foot the targets will not appear as the should. I have shot ranges where we had to dig into a hill side to set a target only inches off the ground to get it set at the right height from the shooting box because the range elevated that much. If you just set all the targets 5 ft off the ground and don't account for the change in elevation then the stage won't be correct. Any changes in elevation of targets from one club to the next defeats the whole purpose of setting the stages the same all over the country. They need to be the same to have a fair classification system. Good point. My club has the same issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornetx40 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tom E said: I'll bet you don't shoot rimfire. Interesting how that position comes from those who don't. Tom e Whats interesting is someone who thinks he knows everyone and their motives. I shoot mostly rim-fires. I also shoot open and PCC. If you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation just be quiet instead of attacking people you don't know. My reason for liking the finger outside the trigger guard is two fold. Safety and to stop the cheats because it is impossible as an R.O. to tell if a shooter is touching the trigger. It is real easy to see if their finger is inside the trigger guard. Why..... to level the playing field..... in the end what ever the rules committee decides I will play by those rules. That is the only way for it to be fair competition. There is no lower type of competitor than a cheat. Edited February 11, 2017 by hornetx40 sp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, hornetx40 said: My reason for liking the finger outside the trigger guard is two fold. Safety.. That is the only way for it to be fair competition. There is no lower type of competitor than a cheat. What's "safer"? The only time you were allowed to have your finger in the trigger guard was when the gun was pointed down range where a rd fired wouldn't be a DQ unless it was before the beep. The "safety" argument is/has been flimsy at best. The only problem was they added the "off the trigger" wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conditionone Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 On 2/10/2017 at 0:47 PM, Tom E said: And quit using timers and just give everyone a participation trophy. With all the divisions and then breaking them by classification you're close to that now. About the only thing you're not doing is having height breaks, 2" increments ok? So, you're SS, C, 5'8" to 5'10", senior. At what point is this just ridiculous? What about magazine/moonclip/speedloader placement on the belt? That should get close scrutiny too? If a holster rule that says it has to be on the belt and cover the trigger confuses you (I'd think it's simpler, particularly for the RO) I have to wonder how you find your way to the range... Okay... here's your participation trophy. Now lets let the adults discuss this in a productive manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 29 minutes ago, conditionone said: Okay... here's your participation trophy. Now lets let the adults discuss this in a productive manner. On this note, I don't believe that SCSA uses the classification system in a "participation trophy" manner at all. Aren't all SCSA competitions "winnings" based simply off of overall winner down, along with division winners down? There's no splitting of winners by class. The class system is used simply to let everybody know where they stand relatively against everyone else, basing the classification off of the exact stages we shoot in competition. This is one area where I think SCSA is head and shoulders above every other organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conditionone Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 2 hours ago, jkrispies said: On this note, I don't believe that SCSA uses the classification system in a "participation trophy" manner at all. Aren't all SCSA competitions "winnings" based simply off of overall winner down, along with division winners down? There's no splitting of winners by class. The class system is used simply to let everybody know where they stand relatively against everyone else, basing the classification off of the exact stages we shoot in competition. This is one area where I think SCSA is head and shoulders above every other organization. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, jkrispies said: Aren't all SCSA competitions "winnings" based simply off of overall winner down, along with division winners down? There's no splitting of winners by class. The class system is used simply to let everybody know where they stand relatively against everyone else, basing the classification off of the exact stages we shoot in competition. This is one area where I think SCSA is head and shoulders above every other organization. It was that way. Not any more. You just got a classification system up and running in SCSA. Just like USPSA and others. Edited February 12, 2017 by Tom E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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