NEW SCSA Rules ?

[jkrispies]

Okay, so I'll bite...

 

I stated earlier that to me these rules are clarifications.  I still stand by that, and I believe that a lot of the discussion I've read here proves my point.  I started shooting Steel Challenge at the Piru range under Mike Dalton and his rules.  Rule clarification was simple-- walk down to the bottom bay and ask Mike.  At that time I didn't shoot "Single Stack."  I shot "CDP," because Mike wend the IDPA route rather than USPSA the route.  There wasn't any discussion about "you can put your holster where ever you please," because we followed CDP rules.  If I wanted to put my holster where ever I pleased, then I would have been shooting Limited.  That wasn't real hard to figure out.  When it switched to USPSA ownership and became Single Stack, I and everybody around me followed Single Stack rules, including holster placement.  To this day, when I shoot Single Stack I follow all of the Single Stack rules and honestly wouldn't think of doing otherwise.  Just like in the Mike Dalton days, if I put my holster anywhere else, or used anything other than a Single Stack approved holster, I'd be shooting Limited.

 

Now, from thie looks of this discussion, I guess half the folks out there in the rest of the world decided that Single Stack rules weren't Single Stack rules and only applied to the gun.  Maybe the rule book between the Mike Dalton days and now supported that assessment-- I didn't check it myself.  I didn't think I needed to.  To me, Single Stack isn't "sorta Single Stack."  It's Single Stack.  Hence, this rule book is clarifying what apparantly needed to be clarified-- now there is no ambiguity.  For me and my friends who shoot Single Stack, we can implement the "new rules" right now without noticing any difference, but I guess everybody else needs to accept the standardization.

 

As far as folks who are so offended by the fact that USPSA is standardizing the Steel Challenge rule set to its USPSA norms...  Well, when I'm a guest in somebody else's house, I follow their rules.  I'm not taking issue with folks stating their opinions, everybody has that right, but a lot of this complaining feels to me like there's an undercurrent of resentment that USPSA is Steel Challenge's new owner and now USPSA is acting like USPSA.  In my humble opinion, that's not fair to USPSA.

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, hornetx40 said:

Thomas H  No where did I say that the new rules changed the guns....I did say that it would change the division.

I do care if the rules switch to "Like USPSA" this is Steel challenge shooting it is not the same. Next SCSA will be running through stages oh wait that is called pro-am. You see different sports have different rules we don't need to make it all mesh. If someone doesn't want to build a steel specific gun thats fine run what ya brung but quit trying to make all of the action sports the same. The differences is what make them all attractive. 

 

...and you get all this from the fact that now the holster has to be closer to the belt?  Given that there aren't any other changes to Open division in this new ruleset?  (You brought up the guns several times, when you talked about the drastic changes to the division.  As such, I assumed that the guns were somehow relevant to the discussion.  Now I know that it wasn't, so thank you for clarifying.  But....if the guns haven't changed, why did you bring it up again in your second to last sentence?  What does that have to do with anything?) 

 

The point to my questions was that I was just trying to figure out if there was something I was missing about the new ruleset.  You said "drastically change the division" so I assumed there were changes I hadn't noticed that would actually change the division significantly.

 

Might I suggest that those folks who think that the holster limits are an issue start by emailing Zach (instead of merely posting here) your commentary and suggestions?  I note that for both Limited and Open, I don't really see a problem with "no particular holster rules other than it must be safe".    Many other people might not also, but first you'd have to actually let Zach know that, and directly emailing him (when you can argue your cause) will probably work better than talking about it here.

[ZackJones]

This is an interesting discussion. I am driving down I-95 at the moment and don't have the draft rule book in front of me. I do know in the "J" appendix for revolver I have listed an exception from the USPSA revolver appendix to state that optics and comps are specifically permitted. We could add an exception for all divisions and say that any holster position as long as it is on the belt is good to go. I'll look at it when I get home this afternoon.

[Thomas H]

Perhaps say that in Limited and Open, the holster rule stays the one from the current (older) ruleset?

[scottlep]

I think one of the biggest problems of the SCSA rules, old or new, is the consistency in which clubs and ROs enforce them and/or interpret them. The new rules will clarify some of this, but I have shot many matches at many different clubs and there is major inconsistencies on how rules are applied. Alot of the problem is, which is much different than USPSA, most local SCSA club matches are hurting for ROs. So getting an RO that is clueless about the rules is going to happen frequently. Many local SCSA matches will throw anybody willing to RO on a squad just because he/she knows how to operate a timer. Most USPSA matches would never allow anyone that is not NROI certified to run a shooter. Yes, there is way more to watch when ROing a USPSA shooter vs SCSA, but having an RO that is absolutely clueless about rules and even just makes things up as he goes is extremely frustrating. Throwing specific holster requirements in on this is kind of useless because the unexperienced SCSA RO probably has no clue what is legal and what is not in each division. Requiring clubs to use certified ROs could never happen because there is never enough of them at most local matches. Do I have a solution for this....no....just pointing it out.

Edited February 3, 2017 by scottlep

[PPGMD]

Personally I am not against bringing the rules more in line with USPSA. Steel Challenge shooters are often crossing over from USPSA. Particularly when many clubs already enforced many of the USPSA holster rules already.

 

I just think that they need to be finalized and published well in advance. For example I have no idea where the new rules are, the only rules I can easily find are the 2013 rules.

Edited February 3, 2017 by PPGMD

[Tom E]

9 hours ago, ZackJones said:

This is an interesting discussion. I am driving down I-95 at the moment and don't have the draft rule book in front of me. I do know in the "J" appendix for revolver I have listed an exception from the USPSA revolver appendix to state that optics and comps are specifically permitted. We could add an exception for all divisions and say that any holster position as long as it is on the belt is good to go. I'll look at it when I get home this afternoon.

Good idea. It simplifies things, is less restrictive, easy to understand and it makes sense.

[ZackJones]

I just think that they need to be finalized and published well in advance. For example I have no idea where the new rules are, the only rules I can easily find are the 2013 rules.

If you or anyone else want to see the latest draft email me at zack@uspsa.org and I will send you a copy to review.

[ZackJones]

I know an easy way we can handle this. In the new rules I've created Appendix J1 which reads as follows:

 

Quote

For Center Fire Pistol Divisions please refer to the applicable Appendix in the USPSA Handgun Competition Rules as outlined below:

Open Division – Appendix D1
Limited Division – Appendix D2

and so on
 

 

 

I can change it to read as follows:

Quote

For Center Fire Pistol Divisions please refer to the applicable Appendix in the USPSA Handgun Competition Rules as outlined below:

Open Division – Appendix D1
Excepted items from Appendix D1 - (1 -3, 5, and 10)  

Limited Division – Appendix D2
Excepted Items from Appendix D2 - (1, 2, 5, and 10)
 

 

 

I could do this for the remaining divisions and then our rules will be closely aligned with USPSA handgun rules and we can exclude those that aren't applicable or in the case of Revolver add that optics, barrel porting and compensators are expressly permitted for OSR.

 

So who wants to volunteer to pick a division and go through it and send me the exception list?

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by ZackJones
Formatting

[ZackJones]

10 hours ago, scottlep said:

I think one of the biggest problems of the SCSA rules, old or new, is the consistency in which clubs and ROs enforce them and/or interpret them. 

 

Troy has been tasked to develop SCSA rules into the RO training. I will take a while to educate the RO's but it's a step in the right direction. 

[jkrispies]

Just my hunble opinion, but if you except the holster rules for Single Stack, then there's no point in having the division at all.  For all practical purposes in steel competition, a 9mm Single Stack is a Limited gun.  Hence, the only appreciable difference between Limited and Single Stack is the holster rules.  With no holster restrictions, a SS shooter is just a Limited shooter with a plain jane gun.  Might as well ditch the division.  Might as well make the same argument for Production. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by jkrispies

[Pasley]

9 hours ago, jkrispies said:

  Might as well ditch the division.  Might as well make the same argument for Production. 

 

Exactly.  Magazine capacity doesn't matter and power factor is not in play which are reasons to have the separate divisions in USPSA.

 

Especially since rimfire seems to be "taking over" steel challenge it doesn't seem like a good idea to have more than iron and optic divisions.  Plus maybe revolver.

[jkrispies]

To be clear, I'm not voting at all to ditch Single Stack and Production divisions.  I think they should be kept in BECAUSE of the holster restrictions.  For the folks who want to shoot a 1911 and game it with whatever holster they want, let them-- they can do it in Limited.  That's the point of Limited existing.  For those of us who want to compete with standard holsters because we LIKE the challenge of competing with standard equipment (isn't that the point of Production???) then we'll have those divisions at our disposal.  Having said that, if holster restrictions aren't enforced then there's literally no need for divisions other than irons and optics.  

[conditionone]

From the current rule book. "Single Stack: Will be governed by the criteria in the USPSA handgun rule book. i.e. 1911 models only, no race holsters allowed. "

From the USPSA rule book "•Suitable for everyday use. “Race gun” type holster prohibited. •Must carry pistol so that the entire front strap (to the trigger guard) is at or above the top of the belt. Female shooters must carry the pistol no lower than the heel of the butt at the top of the belt •May not be manufactured or cut lower than, and must cover the slide up to, 1/2” below the ejection port (belt slide “Yaqui” type holster exempt). Each magazine must be contained individually within the magazine pouch.  Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means."  
 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment
Yes, see Appendix E3

 

So did I give up a competitive advantage for adhering to this rule or are the competitors who do not follow this rule cheating?

[Pasley]

29 minutes ago, conditionone said:

 

So did I give up a competitive advantage for adhering to this rule 

 

I don't think so.  I shoot production (with a Glock) in a holster that would be single stack legal.  I don't think a DOH holster offers the same advantage in steel challenge as it does in USPSA since you always draw from the surrender position.

 

You could spend the next two weeks reading and not get through all the discussion, debate, arguing, and whining about holster placement for various divisions and sports.  It seems like it would be a lot simpler to just let competitors put their holster however they want it.

[jkrispies]

44 minutes ago, Pasley said:

You could spend the next two weeks reading and not get through all the discussion, debate, arguing, and whining about holster placement for various divisions and sports.  It seems like it would be a lot simpler to just let competitors put their holster however they want it.

 

The competitors ALREADY CAN place their holster however they want it, and they can wear pretty much any kind of dropped, cut down, magnetized and practically non-existant holster they want.  This provision already exists:  it's called LIMITED.  I don't know why this is so hard to grasp.  If you don't want to follow the rules of a division, don't claim that you're shooting in that division.  The current rules for Single Stack were clearly posted by Conditionone above.  They are not unclear.  Anybody who is wearing their holster anywhere else, or wearing a non-approved holster, is breaking the rules of Single Stack, shooting in Limited, and quite frankly probably bragging to everybody they know about how great a Single Stack shooter they are when they're probably just a mediocre Limited shooter.  If you play weekend soft-pitch softball, don't stand at the water cooler on Monday telling everybody that you're an amazing baseball player.  It baffles me that people aren't following the rules and then argue to get rid of a division that they aren't honestly even shooting in because they don't like the rules that they aren't following.

 

If SCSA chooses to eliminate holster rules, then that's their purvue and I won't argue it, but if that's the case then it's just silly to keep the divisions.  It should just be irons and optics.

 

That's it.  I'm done.  

[mosher]

^. What this guy said.  Use the same rules on gun and holsters between uspsa and Soda, with as few exceptions as possible, such as for optic Revolver, etc

 

 Exceptions, if ands or buts cause confusion.

 

if you shoot Single Stack and don't want to follow Single Stack rules then shoot limited.  If you shoot production and don't want to follow production rules, shoot limited.

 

dont kill those two divisions on account of people who can't follow rules, when there are folks that can follow rules and would like to shoot those divisions under the rules.

 

also, consider if you go to just irons and optics, the unintended side affect is you are going to lose income at majors.

 

right now I go to majors I sign up to shoot three guns, limited, production, and single stack.  You change that to irons and optics and say I can only shoot once each division I am now restricted to one gun instead of three and you just lost out on entry fees.

 

 

[Thomas H]

I think that we should keep all the rules of all of the divisions EXCEPT:

 

1) In LImited and Open, as long as the holster is safe, there are no restrictions on it, and

2) OSR needs to be clearly defined to allow ports and optics.

 

Other than that....as people have said, what makes things "Single Stack" and "Production" (among others) is the combination of gun and gear allowed.

 

The only difference between the between what is currently allowed in Limited and Open and what the new proposed rules state is the holster placement for Limited and Open, yes?  And nothing else will have changed for any of the other divisions, correct?  (The rules for Production and Single Stack already say must meet USPSA gun and holster rules.)

 

So....keep the rest of the rules, but specifically say that in Limited and Open, holster placement, height, and distance from belt are not limited. 

 

Doesn't that fix literally the ONLY difference between the proposed rules and what currently exist, other than clarifying OSR?

 

I don't think you need to go through all the divisions and specify.  Just add a note in the Limited and Open divisions regarding holsters.  That's it.

 

Appendix J1: 

Open Division, Appendix D1; Except that there are no limits holster placement, height, and distance from belt.

Limited Division, Appendix D2;  Except that there are no limits on holster placement, height, and distance from belt.

 

For OSR: 

 

A5.6.1 Optic Sight Revolver:  A revolver equipped with Electronic/Optical sights and/or a ported barrel/compensator.

 

Appendix J1:  Revolver Division, Appendix D6; Except that competitors in Optical Sight Revolver division may add an electronic/optical sight and/or a ported barrel/compensator

[ZackJones]

I like what Thomas has suggested. I do think it would worth while to add other exceptions such as those related to power factor, etc. Given I have the rules open to the divisions now I'll go ahead and add those.
 

[conditionone]

Thomas is right on here. However, if there is no specific limits as to where a holster can be positioned and only stating it must be safe, leaves it open to interpretation of what is safe or not between RO's and competitors.

[ZackJones]

2 hours ago, conditionone said:

Thomas is right on here. However, if there is no specific limits as to where a holster can be positioned and only stating it must be safe, leaves it open to interpretation of what is safe or not between RO's and competitors.

 

What would you propose instead? I know trying to define "safe" can be a difficult thing to do.

 

[mwx40x40]

So, if Production,Limited,SS, are as defined by USPSA, why would Open be defined any other way?

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, mwx40x40 said:

So, if Production,Limited,SS, are as defined by USPSA, why would Open be defined any other way?

 

Because Open and Limited (Irons, at least) existed in Steel Challenge prior to USPSA adding divisions like Production and Single Stack.

 

Do we need exceptions related to power factor?  Don't the rules already say that power factor is not a thing?  The new proposed ruleset already has this: 

 

4.1.5 There are no minimum power factor or velocity minimums in Steel Challenge. The Pistol Caliber
Carbine Division (PCCI/PCCO) has a maximum velocity of 1600 feet per second.

 

Don't need anything else, do we?

 

As for "safe" regarding holsters --- 1) covers the trigger guard, 2) retains the firearm, 3) does not allow the firearm to point more than 3 feet away from the competitor in any direction while being worn , and does not allow the firearm to point more than 3 feet behind the competitor when drawing or holstering. 

 

...the first two of which are already in the rules.  (Old ruleset, rule 3.1)

 

The old rules only said the first two, and we haven't had problems.  For Open and Limited, why don't we still just say that?  Leave it at that? 

 

Instead of:

Open Division, Appendix D1; Except that there are no limits on holster placement, height, and distance from belt. 

Limited Division, Appendix D2;  Except that there are no limits on holster placement, height, and distance from belt.

 

How about:

Open Division, Appendix D1; Except that there are no limits on holsters other than holsters shall be mounted in the general vicinity of the waist, must cover the
trigger, and must safely hold/retain the gun. 

Limited Division, Appendix D2;  Except that there are no limits on holsters other than holsters shall be mounted in the general vicinity of the waist, must cover the
trigger, and must safely hold/retain the gun. 

 

That keeps the holster rules exactly the same as before for Open and Limited (and thus for the people who are used to those two divisions from Steel Challenge prior to USPSA), while still leaving the other divisions (which came along with USPSA) exactly the same as they are in USPSA.

 

Appendix J1 currently says:

Appendix J1
For Center Fire Pistol Divisions please refer to the applicable Appendix in the USPSA Handgun
Competition Rules as outlined below:

 

How about instead:

Appendix J1

For Center Fire Pistol division rules regarding firearms and their allowed modifications, magazine size and capacity, and holsters, please refer to the applicable Appendix in the USPSA Handgun Competition rules as outlined below:

 

This specifies that we are not talking about power factor and so on.

 

[conditionone]

Aligning Steel rules with USPSA division rules as far as I can see changes nothing in Limited, Open and SS. I am aware of  SCSA holster requirements defining safe and was under the impression that some wanted to remove that section and just use any safe position instead.  So being the holster rules already exist and are the same as USPSA, what are we discussing anyway?

 

Optic Sight Revolver should be renamed Open Revolver (OPR?) to include ported and comped revos with or without optic sights.

[mwx40x40]

10 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Because Open and Limited (Irons, at least) existed in Steel Challenge prior to USPSA adding divisions like Production and Single Stack.

 

Do we need exceptions related to power factor?  Don't the rules already say that power factor is not a thing?  The new proposed ruleset already has this: 

 

4.1.5 There are no minimum power factor or velocity minimums in Steel Challenge. The Pistol Caliber
Carbine Division (PCCI/PCCO) has a maximum velocity of 1600 feet per second.

 

Don't need anything else, do we?

 

As for "safe" regarding holsters --- 1) covers the trigger guard, 2) retains the firearm, 3) does not allow the firearm to point more than 3 feet away from the competitor in any direction while being worn , and does not allow the firearm to point more than 3 feet behind the competitor when drawing or holstering. 

 

...the first two of which are already in the rules.  (Old ruleset, rule 3.1)

 

The old rules only said the first two, and we haven't had problems.  For Open and Limited, why don't we still just say that?  Leave it at that? 

 

Instead of:

Open Division, Appendix D1; Except that there are no limits on holster placement, height, and distance from belt. 

Limited Division, Appendix D2;  Except that there are no limits on holster placement, height, and distance from belt.

 

How about:

Open Division, Appendix D1; Except that there are no limits on holsters other than holsters shall be mounted in the general vicinity of the waist, must cover the
trigger, and must safely hold/retain the gun. 

Limited Division, Appendix D2;  Except that there are no limits on holsters other than holsters shall be mounted in the general vicinity of the waist, must cover the
trigger, and must safely hold/retain the gun. 

 

That keeps the holster rules exactly the same as before for Open and Limited (and thus for the people who are used to those two divisions from Steel Challenge prior to USPSA), while still leaving the other divisions (which came along with USPSA) exactly the same as they are in USPSA.

 

Appendix J1 currently says:

Appendix J1
For Center Fire Pistol Divisions please refer to the applicable Appendix in the USPSA Handgun
Competition Rules as outlined below:

 

How about instead:

Appendix J1

For Center Fire Pistol division rules regarding firearms and their allowed modifications, magazine size and capacity, and holsters, please refer to the applicable Appendix in the USPSA Handgun Competition rules as outlined below:

 

This specifies that we are not talking about power factor and so on.

 

Thanks for that answer. So,as mentioned in my original post,I'd be fine with just Open and Ltd. If optic and or comp you're in open. Iron sights limited. It's not unusual for me to shoot my SS in a Ltd holster and I sign up in limited.

But, whatever settles out with the rules, I'll adapt and keep shooting.