Load suggestions

[thermobollocks]

You already seem to have solved the problem with your bullets and your gun.

[Shadowrider]

6 hours ago, BallisticianX said:

Ive been trying to develop some 38 Short Colt loads for my 627 with what I have on hand. I have a custom 5" barrel by Pinnacle Performance (Factory barrel wouldnt group with 38 short colt, Specials or magnums). In the last two days I've tried Berrys 158 Gr RN .357 diam., Berrys 130 Gr RN .356 diam, and powerbond 158 Gr HP .3575 to .358 diam. Powders used are Bullseye, Titegroup, and WSF. Thus far the accuracy has been dismal regardless of which bullet with all three powders with the 130 gr being the worst, I expected it to be with a .356 diam in a .357 bore, but it was worth a try for elimination sake. The Berrys 158 RN shot best with 3.3 gr Bullseye and 4.4 gr WSF getting 3" groups at 20 yards. The Powerbond with 4.4 WSF showed the most promise with a 2-1/2" group at 20 yards. But still both dismal. After all this I decided to try some 38 special cases to determine if its the Short colt cases or bullets that the gun despises. I loaded up my 38 special recipe I used to run in my old 686 for ICORE that shot very well, Berrys 158 gr RN over 4.0 gr of titegroup. At 20 yards it shot a 1" group. I also ran a 38 special load from 30 years ago that someone gave to me (tag says 150 gr cast 3.6 gr Unique) and again 1" group at twenty. Im starting to doubt that the short colt's long bullet jump in a 357 mag cylinder "doesn't hurt accuracy".  Any thoughts on this?    

 

I think it's kind of gun dependent.  I know guys that get better groups with Long Colt length brass than Short Colt and another runs his brass right between them.  

 

Also plated bullets are a crap shoot in my experience and finicky to load properly.  My 686 will shoot 147RN Extreme's (.357dia) somewhat okay but my 625 throws 230RN Extremes like a shotgun pattern at 20 yards no matter the load.  I literally use all scoring zones and can't call my shots if my life depended on it.  In general I've had far better luck with plain lead and coated lead (Bayou, ACME, etc.) than with anyone's plated bullets.  If they only shot as clean as plated, though the coated are a drastic improvement over plain.

[BallisticianX]

I shot one cylinder of short colt brass loaded with 135gr RN Bullets at .357 diameter that I cast and Hi-Tekk coated. I didn't spend a lot of time with them and only used them over WSF but they sucked the worst of everything I've shot so far. I have seen the consistent trend of anything fired from short colt brass puts 4 to 5 shots in a tight cluster and sends the other 3-4 shots off as stray flyers. With 38 special brass it shoots the entire cylinder into one tight group. That's the baffling part; if the bullet jump from short colt is the problem I would think all the shots would scatter for a pattern rather than a group. Not half and half. If I potentially had a few bad chambers or throats you would think it would show the same signs with 38 special brass loadings, but it doesn't. And the barrel I got put on is not a problem as I get impressive groups with the 38 special loads of the same bullet that otherwise sucks when loaded in short colts. The powders I used aren't out of the realm for compatibility, I used them in 9mm revo loads for my former 929 with good success (WSF worked exceptionally better than any other powder with mid to heavy weight Bullets in 9mm/929). It's just not adding up in my mind. But one thing I noticed was the best group out of short colt brass was with a the only .358 diameter bullet I had on the shelf (Powerbond 158 gr plated HP). So I'm going to focus on the possibility of a bullet diameter preference in the short colt brass. I ordered some Bayou 160 gr RN .358 diameter Bullets to try. If that doesn't work I guess I'll be running special brass and will shell the short colt use.

 

 

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[Drillbit]

5 hours ago, BallisticianX said:

I shot one cylinder of short colt brass loaded with 135gr RN Bullets at .357 diameter that I cast and Hi-Tekk coated. I didn't spend a lot of time with them and only used them over WSF but they sucked the worst of everything I've shot so far. I have seen the consistent trend of anything fired from short colt brass puts 4 to 5 shots in a tight cluster and sends the other 3-4 shots off as stray flyers. With 38 special brass it shoots the entire cylinder into one tight group. That's the baffling part; if the bullet jump from short colt is the problem I would think all the shots would scatter for a pattern rather than a group. Not half and half. If I potentially had a few bad chambers or throats you would think it would show the same signs with 38 special brass loadings, but it doesn't. And the barrel I got put on is not a problem as I get impressive groups with the 38 special loads of the same bullet that otherwise sucks when loaded in short colts. The powders I used aren't out of the realm for compatibility, I used them in 9mm revo loads for my former 929 with good success (WSF worked exceptionally better than any other powder with mid to heavy weight Bullets in 9mm/929). It's just not adding up in my mind. But one thing I noticed was the best group out of short colt brass was with a the only .358 diameter bullet I had on the shelf (Powerbond 158 gr plated HP). So I'm going to focus on the possibility of a bullet diameter preference in the short colt brass. I ordered some Bayou 160 gr RN .358 diameter Bullets to try. If that doesn't work I guess I'll be running special brass and will shell the short colt use.

 

For me, Short Colt brass and Berry's 158 RN along with Ibe 160gr RN, both over Tite Group gave me my best groups. 2" at twenty yards is the norm. Also remember I'm shooting a 929 so there is not as much bullet jump.  

 

 

 

[BallisticianX]

A shorter cylinder for the 627 to exclusively use 38 short colt would be the ultimate solution. But the factory 627 one cant be cut to reduce the distance jumped to the cylinder throats. So retrofitting a 929 Cylinder in conjunction to a custom fitted barrel is the only realistic way to proceed for shortening bullet jump. Its costly and I just paid for a custom barrel matching the 627 cylinder. Not to mention I despise the titanium cylinders, that's the reason I offed my 929. If short colts wont produce accuracy I know the 38 specials will as its already fired a few 1" 8 shot groups at 20 yards. Damn thing is a tac driver with specials, puts anything my 929 could do to shame! So Ill try a few more things and if it doesnt work out Ill just shoot specials like a friggin laser beam.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by BallisticianX

[Drillbit]

Cold you try seating the 160 Bayou out farther and then bump up your powder to make up for any velocity loss?

[BallisticianX]

Cold you try seating the 160 Bayou out farther and then bump up your powder to make up for any velocity loss?

That is my current plan of attack. I'm waiting on the Bullets to arrive to proceed. I'll report back once I run some.


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[Drillbit]

On 3/29/2017 at 7:00 AM, BallisticianX said:

That is my current plan of attack. I'm waiting on the Bullets to arrive to proceed. I'll report back once I run some.


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Well did you have any luck?
 

[BallisticianX]

On 4/10/2017 at 3:31 PM, Drillbit said:

 

Well did you have any luck?
 

I did initially shoot the bayou 160's once I got them. The accuracy was still dismal with short colt cases with COL out long or shortened up. I noticed 2 things in 50 rounds;  a pattern of 2 separate groups in 8 shot strings regardless of the powder I used and clumped leading (in the very smoothly finished forcing cone). So I decided to check my cylinder throat diameters. (pin gauges being MIA I had to machine a few pins in .0005" increments) I found the following; 1 throat = .356", 3 throats = .3565", 3 throats at .357", and one throat at .3575". Not earth shattering bad (better than a Ruger cylinder I suppose) but not good either. Anything below .357" is not welcome with lead bullets of any kind. With the variety of swaged bullet diameters being sent down the barrel courtesy of the throat variances I'm thinking that might be the culprit. As of last night I honed all the throats to .358". I went to .358" as the revolver lead bullet enthusiasts of the past swore by the throat needing to be .0005" to .001" larger than the groove diameter. Today I plan on testing my work and theory. I hope it works...I'm determined to make the short colts work but its becoming a pain in my arse! I will post up what results I get.  

Edited April 12, 2017 by BallisticianX

[BallisticianX]

Well after a few groups with the same short colt load that shot lousy groups prior to the throat uniformity fired great groups tonight. The groups stayed within reasonable size with every string of 8 I shot this evening. Im glad my theory (and work) was correct!


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[Drillbit]

Very good..

Those groups look great.  .357 is what my throats measured, in my 929 so that's the size I've been shooting.  There plated bullets 158gn and shoot fairly well but I will be changing to coated 160's when they are gone. I have already shot a sample of IbejiHeads 160's and like them more then plated.   

[BallisticianX]

In .357 bores a .358 bullet will be swayed down to .357 and depends on the bore how well they will seal for consistency. My former 929 had .357 throats and .357 bore so they worked ok. Rule of thumb are your throats should be .0005 to .001 larger than groove diameter. They you choose a bullet equal to the throat diameter. I get best results that way, no fliers and consistency. I tweaked my load and increased the COL on the short colts and got some better groups today. I attached a target with an 8 shot group measuring .810" shot on the bench at 20 yards.


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[Drillbit]

Another great group. Looks like you have found your load.

I'm going to run what I have for now. It probably won't be coast effective to have the cylinder throats opened up. Hell, TK Custom wants a $100.00 to chamfer the charge holes. Can't imagine what the other would coast. 

[BallisticianX]

Another great group. Looks like you have found your load.
I'm going to run what I have for now. It probably won't be coast effective to have the cylinder throats opened up. Hell, TK Custom wants a $100.00 to chamfer the charge holes. Can't imagine what the other would coast. 

Call Punnacle High Performance (Mark Hartshorne) to get them chamfered and throats honed. He is cheaper than that and does top notch work.


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[Drillbit]

I'll take a look.