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Arm and wrist alignment


Honeybooboo

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Not sure how to best describe this but I was shooting today and thinking about how the gun lines up in your hand, wrists, and arms. 

When you watch guys like Bob Vogel talk about grip they sort of clamp in on the gun and the elbows flare out. This causes the gun to line up at an angle compared to the wrist. I've seen this called an "offset grip."

i was watching a video with Jon McPhee. He's a former Green Beret and Delta guy. He was talking about the importance of lining the gun up with the arm. I've seen this called an "in-line grip." I don't think it can ever really get fully in line with an isosceles stance because the gun is in the center of your body and your arms don't come out of your chest. He says the in-line grip is important for accuracy. If the gun is offset in your hand it'll cause you to pull shots.

So shooting today I was trying to focus on tucking my elbows in and getting the gun in line with my arm as much as possible. It seemed like this provided more muzzle control because my shooting arm was locked and absorbing recoil, compared to having my wrist offset and it being harder to control. 

Maybe I'm overthinking it but does anyone pay attention to how your wrist and arms line up with the gun. What have you found?

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I started with elbows locked, but now shoot with elbows slightly bent (but not flared out).  similar to this:

 EHP-Shooter-Max-Michel.jpg

 

It feels more comfortable, relaxed, just as repeatable, my transitions feel snappier, & i can still lock my wrists sufficiently to get back on target quickly.    

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27 minutes ago, Honeybooboo said:

When you watch guys like Bob Vogel talk about grip they sort of clamp in on the gun and the elbows flare out. This causes the gun to line up at an angle compared to the wrist. I've seen this called an "offset grip."ve you found?

I like clamping your grip towards the barrel axis a lot. However I think it is less than ideal to allow your elbows to flare out while doing it as the shoulder doesn't operate very well when flexed and internally rotated. I prefer to keep the elbows more in (externally rotated) and clamp towards the barrel axis from my wrists. I feel this gives me the best of both worlds.

29 minutes ago, Honeybooboo said:

i was watching a video with Jon McPhee. He's a former Green Beret and Delta guy. He was talking about the importance of lining the gun up with the arm. I've seen this called an "in-line grip." I don't think it can ever really get fully in line with an isosceles stance because the gun is in the center of your body and your arms don't come out of your chest. He says the in-line grip is important for accuracy. If the gun is offset in your hand it'll cause you to pull shots.

I get what he's saying here and it makes some sense in theory, but in practice it doesn't really hold water. The grip is where effective recoil management starts. Having an effective grip also allows you to keep the gun steadier while pulling the trigger quickly. The thought that you need an "in-line grip" to shoot accurately is just patently false. Some of those spec ops guys are pretty good shooters however most of them are very unimpressive with a pistol. If someone is pulling shots it isn't because the gun is offset in their hand. If you and I went to the range and set up a 20 yard plate, you can put the gun in my hands any way you want to...offset left, offset right, upside down, whatever...I guarantee I can still hit that plate every time. The reason is because I know how to pull the trigger without moving the gun.

42 minutes ago, Honeybooboo said:

So shooting today I was trying to focus on tucking my elbows in and getting the gun in line with my arm as much as possible. It seemed like this provided more muzzle control because my shooting arm was locked and absorbing recoil, compared to having my wrist offset and it being harder to control. 

Maybe I'm overthinking it but does anyone pay attention to how your wrist and arms line up with the gun. What have you found?

As I said earlier I think keeping your elbows in is a good thing. As far as keeping the gun in line with your arm, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Focus on having a solid grip, clamp towards the bore axis from the wrists, elbows in, arms mostly straight (definitively not locked...locked is bad), and keep good arm/body tension. Stance obviously plays a big part in everything as well, but since you're asking about grip I won't go into stance in this post.

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I've been trying to use Jake's described method of gripping towards the barrel.  It is difficult to feel like your doing it right without the elbows going out too.  But the gun feels really solid in the hands when you do it right.  I notice the gun moves a lot less when really smashing the trigger with this grip.  In dry fire I have been lazy and not gripping correctly.  Something I am definitely focused on right now.  

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Bent (I call them broke) elbows are essential in being able to crush the grip.  Do a simple test.  Lock your arms out and build your grip.  Take notice how much pressure you can apply to the grip panels.  Now break your elbows a 1/2" and see how much pressure you can apply. 

 

Elbows flared or not flared is situational dependent.  Are you shooting Open, Limited, or Production?  What king of grip strength do you have?  Just how big a fella are you? 

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1 hour ago, superlifer03 said:

Bent (I call them broke) elbows are essential in being able to crush the grip.  Do a simple test.  Lock your arms out and build your grip.  Take notice how much pressure you can apply to the grip panels.  Now break your elbows a 1/2" and see how much pressure you can apply. 

 

Elbows flared or not flared is situational dependent.  Are you shooting Open, Limited, or Production?  What king of grip strength do you have?  Just how big a fella are you? 

 

I agree with you. If you want a vice like grip where you are applying inward pressure with both of your hands, the elbows will naturally bent outwards.

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19 hours ago, PatJones said:

You're over thinking. 

 

There's something to be said about analyzing the details. As a coach I want to understand the mechanics of everything I do and teach. One of my rules as a coach is that if I can't explain the mechanics behind what I'm telling you to do I shouldn't be telling you to do it.. I find the more that people understand what they are doing and why they are doing it, the shorter their learning curve becomes.

 

6 hours ago, superlifer03 said:

Bent (I call them broke) elbows are essential in being able to crush the grip.  Do a simple test.  Lock your arms out and build your grip.  Take notice how much pressure you can apply to the grip panels.  Now break your elbows a 1/2" and see how much pressure you can apply. 

 

Elbows flared or not flared is situational dependent.  Are you shooting Open, Limited, or Production?  What king of grip strength do you have?  Just how big a fella are you? 

 

I agree with a slight bend in the elbows. As far as having the elbows flared out or not flared out, it is not situationally dependent at all in my opinion. Everyone is different, but our bodies all follow the same principles. The most stable position of the shoulder in all ranges of flexion is external rotation. This fact is not up for debate. If you let your elbows flare outwards, you are in violation of this principle. Does that mean you can't shoot well like that? Of course not. One only needs to look at Vogel to see that. It is without a doubt a less than ideal position though.

 

4 hours ago, Heyman2 said:

 

I agree with you. If you want a vice like grip where you are applying inward pressure with both of your hands, the elbows will naturally bent outwards.

 

What happens "naturally" means nothing. I tell most people that if you're doing something athletic and it feels comfortable, it is almost certainly wrong or at least not as good as it could be. The body doesn't just assume it's best positions on it's own. You have to put yourself there and then hold yourself there. It's "natural" for most people to slouch in their chair...does that mean it's good? Of course not.

 

4 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

If only it was that simple we would all be GMs

 

The act of shooting is very simple. Simple does not mean easy though.

 

4 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

Even though I draw my gun in dry fire hundreds of times a day I still have trouble getting the same solid grip every time.  Especially after the reload

 

Don't worry man. After shooting some form of competition for 17 years and dry firing more than most people, I still have similar problems. In fact if someone told me they never screw their grip up, I'd call them a liar.

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14 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

 

What happens "naturally" means nothing. I tell most people that if you're doing something athletic and it feels comfortable, it is almost certainly wrong or at least not as good as it could be. The body doesn't just assume it's best positions on it's own. You have to put yourself there and then hold yourself there. It's "natural" for most people to slouch in their chair...does that mean it's good? Of course not.

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is, the harder you grip your pistol with inward pressure from both hands, so that the part of your palm by the thumb is really torquing in, the elbows will naturally flare out. I didn't mean to say that this is a natural, comfortable position. Just that, they will naturally flare out in relation to the torquing in of both hands on the pistol. I agree that this is not a natural or comfortable thing for the human body to do, but that it is natural in relation to the grip. When I use this grip, I can feel the tension in my shoulders, which certainly is not a comfortable feeling

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17 minutes ago, Heyman2 said:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is, the harder you grip your pistol with inward pressure from both hands, so that the part of your palm by the thumb is really torquing in, the elbows will naturally flare out. I didn't mean to say that this is a natural, comfortable position. Just that, they will naturally flare out in relation to the torquing in of both hands on the pistol. I agree that this is not a natural or comfortable thing for the human body to do, but that it is natural in relation to the grip. When I use this grip, I can feel the tension in my shoulders, which certainly is not a comfortable feeling

 

Yeah, that's why I said in my first post that the inward tension on the gun needs to come from the wrists while keeping the elbows in a lower externally rotated position.

Edited by Jake Di Vita
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3 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

According to the new Frontsight, we are all supposed to be squeezing balls before we shoot.  

I use the lightest CoC gripper to warm up my forearms, wrists and fingers before the first stage of the day. I feel like it helps. 

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11 hours ago, CrashDodson said:

According to the new Frontsight, we are all supposed to be squeezing balls before we shoot.  

 

7 hours ago, taxil343 said:

I use the lightest CoC gripper to warm up my forearms, wrists and fingers before the first stage of the day. I feel like it helps. 

 

Why not just dryfire? You'll still warm up your forearms, wrists, and fingers and it's a hell of a lot more applicable than squeezing balls, as fun as that might be.

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3 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

 

Why not just dryfire? You'll still warm up your forearms, wrists, and fingers and it's a hell of a lot more applicable than squeezing balls, as fun as that might be.

To me it is easier to use a gripper and a rubber band during the shooters meeting than it is to hang out at the safe table for 5 minutes. 

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1 hour ago, taxil343 said:

To me it is easier to use a gripper and a rubber band during the shooters meeting than it is to hang out at the safe table for 5 minutes. 

 

I'm sure it is. Unfortunately taking the easier path almost never leads you to peak performance.

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7 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

 

Why not just dryfire? You'll still warm up your forearms, wrists, and fingers and it's a hell of a lot more applicable than squeezing balls, as fun as that might be.

 

The Frontsite article was about neurological warm-up, squeezing something with your left hand to activate the right brain which controls the subconscious so as not to perform an activity too consciously which I believe was a theory on why some people choke when they have the skills necessary to perform at a high level.

 

As for the actual physical warm-up, I still want something that runs my arms, hands and fingers brought a greater range of motion than what dryfire does.  I warm-up before dryfire, so same routine for live fire.  I have had nerve and other arm issues so I always am very deliberate about warm-up.

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18 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

 

The Frontsite article was about neurological warm-up, squeezing something with your left hand to activate the right brain which controls the subconscious so as not to perform an activity too consciously which I believe was a theory on why some people choke when they have the skills necessary to perform at a high level.

 

As for the actual physical warm-up, I still want something that runs my arms, hands and fingers brought a greater range of motion than what dryfire does.  I warm-up before dryfire, so same routine for live fire.  I have had nerve and other arm issues so I always am very deliberate about warm-up.

 

Just finished reading the article. My first thought is I really need to read the full papers of the studies that were quoted in the article before I decide what I think about it. When it comes to shooting I do think good old simple rushing is going to be a larger cause of choking than the left side the brain interfering. I appreciate the author's efforts although I don't think there is as much meat here as is suggested. That being said, it wouldn't be bad to give it a try. Might be interesting to track a full season of matches without "priming the right hemisphere" then tracking a full season ball squeezing and compare the two. I'd bet there are at least shooters that would even benefit from a placebo effect.

 

For me, I'm probably just gonna keep dry firing. I feel the best ways to prevent choking is preparation (The law of seven P's rings true to me) and mindset.

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