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Does USPSA offer or cover insurance for people working


Sandbagger123

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On 1/24/2017 at 10:05 AM, peterthefish said:

 


Your rep is probably confused. Your HO policy (that you're looking for an umbrella for) covers losses due to your negligence. There is no blanket exclusion for shooting sports. An umbrella typically follows form and provides higher limits. So you would just need an umbrella liability policy, not a policy specific to the shooting sports.

 

 

Based on what was said I called State Farm as I have a $1 million umbrella liability policy with them. They said it covers everything, no exclusions for anything.

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2 hours ago, tanks said:

 

Based on what was said I called State Farm as I have a $1 million umbrella liability policy with them. They said it covers everything, no exclusions for anything.

 

I would get a second opinion from another State Farm Agent.  I have received answers from my State Farm agent, on an unrelated item to this topic, and he was overruled by the claims department which resulted in no financial support from State Farm for me.

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13 hours ago, mjohn said:

 

I would get a second opinion from another State Farm Agent.  I have received answers from my State Farm agent, on an unrelated item to this topic, and he was overruled by the claims department which resulted in no financial support from State Farm for me.

 

It won't be any more valuable than the first opinion.  You want facts? Read your policy document.

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What you really want is to see that the range hosting the event has insurance coverage that covers all officials and volunteers for any of its events. It's pretty simple.......I do this all the time for matches that many of you have attended (many area & sectional matches and even the USPSA Jr. Camp at MGM.....) or will attend. Providing this type of coverage for your volunteers/match officials is something I personally as a MD think is part of the cost of doing business for my range. The problem is that many folks who are in charge of purchasing the insurance coverage for the range really have no clue about this and the agents who are selling it don't really understand all the risks involved if they are not participants. Having to rely on your personal insurance coverage such as a Homeowners policy(and the related Excess policy that goes over it) for something such as this is just asking for trouble. I work for Insurance companies...........the first thing that they do when a potential large claim comes in is to sit down and try to figure out a way to NOT pay the claim by invoking exclusions or case law. Please read that last statement again. The Claims department's job is first to see if they can get out of paying. Then the 2nd part of that is to see if they can pay as little as possible. The trick is having an agent that knows all this and makes sure that you have a policy that specifically does cover these activities. If the policy specifically does cover the activities (by naming them), then they typically can't not pay. I say typically because they do have some wiggle room for the dumb things some people do....(Let's put targets on top of the berms for people to shoot....even though we know better and said we wouldn't.....I can't make that stuff up. It happens...).  

 

This can be done for just 1 event such as an area match or for an entire season (policy year). It is not cheap and it is time consuming getting it set up as this is specialty markets but it really is not that expensive in comparison to many other product fields. (Think automotive or aerospace.....the only 2 things besides nuclear coverage that make insurance companies go running and screaming as fast as firearm related coverage).  By time consuming, I mean working 4-6 months out before the event/season starts, with all your documentation ready for me. This is a topic where a range/event can show itself to be different by advertising to the staff that they carry insurance for those who will volunteer, so that folks don't have to worry about it.


If you have questions, do not hesitate to get a hold of me. Happy to take care of my gun folks and ranges.

 

Rroy

 

 

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What you really want is to see that the range hosting the event has insurance coverage that covers all officials and volunteers for any of its events. It's pretty simple.......I do this all the time for matches that many of you have attended (many area & sectional matches and even the USPSA Jr. Camp at MGM.....) or will attend. Providing this type of coverage for your volunteers/match officials is something I personally as a MD think is part of the cost of doing business for my range. The problem is that many folks who are in charge of purchasing the insurance coverage for the range really have no clue about this and the agents who are selling it don't really understand all the risks involved if they are not participants.


I absolutely agree with this. Agents make a lot of mistakes, especially when dealing with less common coverages. Most states require less professional education to be an insurance agent than they do to cut hair.


Having to rely on your personal insurance coverage such as a Homeowners policy(and the related Excess policy that goes over it) for something such as this is just asking for trouble.


Generally agree here - the best strategy is to know what the range / host organization offers. However, it's not a bad idea to have a layer of protection you buy (and understand) above that.



I work for Insurance companies...........the first thing that they do when a potential large claim comes in is to sit down and try to figure out a way to NOT pay the claim by invoking exclusions or case law. Please read that last statement again. The Claims department's job is first to see if they can get out of paying. Then the 2nd part of that is to see if they can pay as little as possible.


I strongly disagree with this, although I understand why the perception exists. The first thing insurance companies do when a loss comes in is to verify coverage. This means looking at the loss, and the policy language, to determine that the policy you bought actually covers the loss you are reporting. You wouldn't expect your homeowners insurance policy to cover you from a car accident would you? But the only reason it doesn't provide liability coverage for an auto accident is a tricky little "exclusion" the evil insurance companies try to use to get out of paying claims!!! Insurers have a duty to pay losses covered by the policy - expecting them to do otherwise is like expecting Walmart to refund you for something you bought at Target.

The reality is, insurers make errors in coverage analysis, sure. But it's far more common (like 10:1) that an agent tells an insured "sure, that's covered by the policy" without knowing or checking the accuracy of that statement. And then when an uncovered loss occurs, the agent blames the insurer rather than walking back their opinion and exposing themself to an E&O claim.
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On 2/6/2017 at 6:14 PM, Sarge said:

I have heard from this forum and others that these waivers are generally worthless if something really bad happens

 

Untrue.  Waivers are not infallible, but they are upheld by the courts in most jurisdictions.  They do not affect the rights of other claimants who don't sign the form (most common example, consortium plaintiffs).

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On 2/7/2017 at 10:52 AM, mreed911 said:

 

It won't be any more valuable than the first opinion.  You want facts? Read your policy document.

 

Exactly--a State Farm PLUP will have a variety of exclusions, but none that directly involve volunteer participation or officiating in the shooting sports.  

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On 2/9/2017 at 10:22 AM, peterthefish said:

 


I absolutely agree with this. Agents make a lot of mistakes, especially when dealing with less common coverages. Most states require less professional education to be an insurance agent than they do to cut hair.



Generally agree here - the best strategy is to know what the range / host organization offers. However, it's not a bad idea to have a layer of protection you buy (and understand) above that.




I strongly disagree with this, although I understand why the perception exists. The first thing insurance companies do when a loss comes in is to verify coverage. This means looking at the loss, and the policy language, to determine that the policy you bought actually covers the loss you are reporting. You wouldn't expect your homeowners insurance policy to cover you from a car accident would you? But the only reason it doesn't provide liability coverage for an auto accident is a tricky little "exclusion" the evil insurance companies try to use to get out of paying claims!!! Insurers have a duty to pay losses covered by the policy - expecting them to do otherwise is like expecting Walmart to refund you for something you bought at Target.

The reality is, insurers make errors in coverage analysis, sure. But it's far more common (like 10:1) that an agent tells an insured "sure, that's covered by the policy" without knowing or checking the accuracy of that statement. And then when an uncovered loss occurs, the agent blames the insurer rather than walking back their opinion and exposing themself to an E&O claim.

 

 

Peterthefish is squarely on track with this post.  

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