Does USPSA offer or cover insurance for people working

[mreed911]

6 minutes ago, jc3257 said:

The only thing that I see could cause an issue is if you are paid vs. a volunteer. Then the lawyers will decide how the policy responds. Is free match entry payment? What about a major match where the host club pays your hotel bill...etc.

 

Coming from the public safety side I can say that once "certification" becomes involved pay status goes out the window.  If you're a USPSA "certified" RO/CRO/RM/MD/ROFL/WTF they're going to call into question "was there a breach of rule or best practice that contributed to the event?"

[jc3257]

Coming from the public safety side I can say that once "certification" becomes involved pay status goes out the window.  If you're a USPSA "certified" RO/CRO/RM/MD/ROFL/WTF they're going to call into question "was there a breach of rule or best practice that contributed to the event?"

I think that will carry weight in court however the insurance policy will look at payment to see if was a business endeavor and therefore excluded from coverage under the homeowner policy and hence excluded from the excess policy (umbrella). The certification may hurt the argument for the RO. Certified and compensated may be two strikes! How hard the insurance company will fight is usually influenced by the size of the lawsuit. No easy answers I'm afraid.


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[9x45]

3 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

I've never asked to see a range liability policy, but should have.

What is the typical reaction of the range staff or the MD when you make this request?  Good, bad or indifferent?

Well, one club said don't worry, your'e covered, and I said then you won't have any problem getting RO's, will you? But not me, buy. All the other clubs had copies ready to go, or emailed it out to me. See, I've put on matches at county facilities, and they won't even talk to you without a copy of event liability insurance which names them harmless and also protects my staff, by name.

[9x45]

mreed, are you a lawyer? or are you just saying? I ask because it sounds like you have been drug thru civil court regarding a shooting. 

[davsco]

not a lawyer but thinking that working a match (ie getting a $100 match fee waived in exchange for three or four days of work) would not allow an insurance company to exclude someone from being covered under their homeowner's/umbrella policy.

has anyone gotten a definitive yes/no from their insurance companies whether or not incidents during shooting activities are covered or excluded?  

[mreed911]

38 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

mreed, are you a lawyer? or are you just saying? I ask because it sounds like you have been drug thru civil court regarding a shooting. 

I'm a long-time paramedic and I've been involved in stopping to help at off-duty incidents, not all of which have happy outcomes.  Because I'm licensed (and, technically also certified separately) I don't fall under the Good Sam law(s) here in Texas and my on-duty protocols explicitly don't extend to off-duty, so it's "basic standard of care."  I've been a police officer, too (reserve) and might be going back... but that's another story.  I've also started my own business where professional liability insurance was required.  I work full time in software so I can afford all the things I like to play with in USPSA which makes me a larger target than the standard street-issue medic.

All that to say I've been through lots of options with insurance folks and attorneys around what coverage/when/where.  Having none MIGHT make you vulnerable.  Having more than none MIGHT make you a target.  YMMV.

In any case, I can't recall the last match I worked that provided or required any kind of indemnity clause, contract, employment agreement, etc. at the staff/volunteer level.  That's probably a good and bad thing (think about match fees if every volunteer was now an employee working in "hazardous conditions" per OSHA - things like "did you provide level IIIA ballistic vests" and "did you provide 15-minute breaks, water, cooling stations, etc.).

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by mreed911

[Clay1]

3 hours ago, jc3257 said:

 

Peter the fish is correct, your homeowner policy will respond first and then a "umbrella" policy. Most people call it an umbrella but is really an excess liability policy that follows the coverage on the underlying policy (i.e.; homeowner policy) Not many companies sell true umbrella policies anymore. As long as you did nothing intentional to cause bodily injury to someone, your policies should respond.

The only thing that I see could cause an issue is if you are paid vs. a volunteer. Then the lawyers will decide how the policy responds. Is free match entry payment? What about a major match where the host club pays your hotel bill...etc.


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I'm not guessing here.  I spoke to my insurance agent, who has been an American Family rep for 25 years and he called the underwriters.  I have no coverage under my homeowners or any umbrella type policy that they have available for me.  Your insurance company might be different.

I do pay for the NRA instructors insurance out of my own pocket, which covers me for shooting related activities. 

I would suggest you call your agent and see about your own personal situation with your current insurance company.  The time to find out is not after the fact.

 

[Sandbagger123]

So reading all of the post it seems that this is kinda gray area.  people say that home owners will cover it? I would think that it should be covered by those that are profiting off of the matches.  in my case its the range and USPSA.   i even wonder if USPSA  even has insurance that covers this.

i asked a few lawyer friends that practice PI , and they say that you sue everyone involved and then hash it out in the court system. 

[Brooke]

18 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

If you are killed at the range your life insurance policy will pay to your beneficiaries, if your family feels the owner of the range is somewhat responsible for you death they might choose to sue that owner, in which case their liability insurance would defend them, with their umbrella policy covering any judgement over the primary policy limits.  Unless you are the owner of the range, or the club, I can't see an umbrella policy doing you any good in a situation like this.

Life insurance covers what happens to you, liability insurance covers what you do to someone else.

 

 

15 hours ago, rowdyb said:

yep, i meant my post to be read as a warning, not as a complaint. if you're expecting any org or range or club to cover you while working a match, you might be in for a sad surprise should stuff go really south.

Yes Kneeling guy, I know the difference between life insurance and liability insurance. I am not concerned about life insurance. If I'm dead I don't care. It's being alive and having no money that I am concerned about.

Even though this thread has gotten to no consensus conclusion, I'm with Rowdy. If I am ROing and something bad happens, lawyers are going to sue everybody in sight. Never mind I might be guilty of no negligence or no carelessness. The problem I see with comments here is that it is uncertain whether a range or club policy covers us and whether a personal umbrella policy covers us or makes us more likely to be sued.

I just don't know and I have been concerned about it. The other thing is that even if you are not ROing or were the potential "wrongdoer", is everyone in attendance at a tragedy possibly liable? After all the sporting event would not even have occurred if there were no participants. Whole thing seems uncertain to me. Since I go by the old engineering proverb that nothing is complicated to someone who understands it I was hoping someone who understands it would chime it here. No disrespect to anyone, but I have not seen that yet.

 

[Brooke]

18 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Brooke

[wgj3]

I would imagine that USPSA will be giving us some answers in the coming days. I don't see how they could avoid it at this point.

[kneelingatlas]

1 hour ago, wgj3 said:

I would imagine that USPSA will be giving us some answers in the coming days. I don't see how they could avoid it at this point.

Why would you expect that?  Unless the organization is sued over this incident, I would expect them to steer clear of it, at least until it blows over.  The obituary GringoBandito linked to is posted on the website of an injury lawyer who's blatantly fishing for someone to sue over this.

I'm not sure who operates the rifle range, but I suspect that club and the owner of the range would be the most likely targets of a lawsuit, with Norco Running Gun and USPSA further down the list.  It would surprise me if any individuals were named (possibly the shooter who fired the rifle, but unless it could be proved he did something grossly negligent, I doubt it).

Disclaimer:  I'm not a lawyer, I don't sell insurance, just a guy on the internet who's been through a few lawsuits.

 

[wgj3]

I would think that enough people asking questions along these lines would get some answers.

There are a fair number of guys playing these games who have some cash and I'm certain there are plenty of unscrupulous attorneys out there who would name anyone they possibly could to potentially make a buck.

I would think that the folk who will want answers are the ones like myself who volunteer at numerous matches and don't want to be on the receiving end of such a suit without any kind of help on my side. I'm still fairly young and somewhat stupid, but I can certainly see where it would help to have some clarification around this subject.

 

[Flatland Shooter]

 

Some of this was discussed before.

From a old thread here on the Enos forum over an accidental death in Dallas at a USPSA local match.  The complete thread: 

And here is what brings it into this thread.  Deep pockets will be named in the lawsuit.  They may not be liable but if they have assets, the lawyers will try to get them.

Posted December 28, 2011

On 12/28/2011 at 3:56 PM, joseywales said:

  On 12/28/2011 at 3:31 PM, Chills1994 said:

major thread drift ahead....

I could swear I saw a documentary one time about a kid who had got shot in the head at a range. There was a club house building of sorts just on the other side of a back berm. In the bay, there was an "Ip-sick" match going on. Somebody fired a shot say like while reloading.... or their gun had doubled. The bullet (boolit?) went through a wooden baffle, through the wall of the club house attic, down through the ceiling, and hit the kid, a teenager I think, right in the head and killed him.

This documentary aired back in the 1990's, I'm pretty sure.

IIRC, they traced whose gun it was because of the Rooster red boolit lube still left in the groove of the boolit.

The kid's father was a state trooper. I remember some expert witnesses were brought in who could do the computer modeling/animation at the time showing how the bullet passed through the baffle, through the attic and struck the kid in the head.

Lawsuit wise I'd be curious who all the kid's father brought into court.???

 

Dallas Pistol Club - in the late 1980's (I think), long before I even knew it existed (it's my home practice range).

I remember seeing that documentary too - I can't find any reference to it on the internet. Not sure who produced it - maybe Discovery or PBS.

My understanding is that the lawyers named EVERYONE on the board of directors along with others.

To hear some of the folks who were sued - if you had any insurance coverage - you were named.

This range used to hold USPSA matches. After all that dust settled...never again. The particular bays from which that shot was fired are no longer used.

To align back with this thread - there are signs on every concrete berm wall - "Muzzle must not point above dirt berm" - policy went into effect 3 years ago.

The range is bordered by soccer fields to the west, industrial to the east and south. North is the only direction we can shoot.

The club BOD is fearful of a round getting out of the range and shutting the whole place down.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[Brooke]

4 hours ago, wgj3 said:

I would imagine that USPSA will be giving us some answers in the coming days. I don't see how they could avoid it at this point.

I doubt that. This has been a big issue on IDPA forums from time to time and IDPA has never to my knowledge addressed it. My guess is that lawyers are telling them that the adoption of any plans for this could actually make them liable (or more so). This is definitely a thorny issue that keeps everyone at arms length. Suppose a shooter that I am running suddenly turns and shoots someone beyond the 180. The victims wife (and lawyer) want to sue me (and everybody else in sight) because I was to be in charge of keeping the shooter following safety rules. Never mind that nobody (in this fictitious case) could have possibly reacted fast enough to the sudden shooter action. My guess is that I need a really good lawyer or I am big trouble.

I am not a lawyer, do not play one on TV, and have not stayed in a Holiday Inn in years. Just reacting to stuff I see in the news. I will say that for the benefit of everyone, the money spent to subsidize World Shoot participants could be used better by covering RO's with liability insurance. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is sufficient protection when a twisted lawyer starts talking.

[mreed911]

7 hours ago, Brooke said:

[...] is everyone in attendance at a tragedy possibly liable? After all the sporting event would not even have occurred if there were no participants.

No, that's not how tort law works.

[Carmoney]

I'm an attorney in real life and my practice is 100% devoted to defending civil lawsuits.  Here's my take on this:

When I run a match, or grab the timer and serve as an RO, I don't accept any compensation.  It is purely a volunteer effort on my part.  With that in mind, I am reasonably confident that in addition to whatever liability coverage may exist in the organization and/or local club, I should be covered by my own personal liability insurance (via homeowners and personal umbrella policies).  I am clearly not acting in a business capacity.  If my carrier (which is not one of my firm's insurance clients, by the way, for this very reason) tries to deny me a defense or indemnity, they will have a much bigger problem on their hands with the bad faith action they will be facing from me.

Fortunatey, serious injuries at our matches are incredibly rare.  We can thank the fact that we have a well-reasoned and mature rulebook for that.  But shit does happen.  

For those concerned about this issue, I recommend a paid consultation with an experienced civil trial attorney licensed in your state of residence.  Insurance agents and underwriters mean well (usually), but they are not always well-informed on what risks their own companies' policies cover and do not cover. 

 

[JayWord]

21 minutes ago, Carmoney said:

I'm an attorney in real life and my practice is 100% devoted to defending civil lawsuits.  Here's my take on this:

When I run a match, or grab the timer and serve as an RO, I don't accept any compensation.  It is purely a volunteer effort on my part.  With that in mind, I am reasonably confident that in addition to whatever liability coverage may exist in the organization and/or local club, I should be covered by my own personal liability insurance (via homeowners and personal umbrella policies).  I am clearly not acting in a business capacity.  If my carrier (which is not one of my firm's insurance clients, by the way, for this very reason) tries to deny me a defense or indemnity, they will have a much bigger problem on their hands with the bad faith action they will be facing from me.

Fortunatey, serious injuries at our matches are incredibly rare.  We can thank the fact that we have a well-reasoned and mature rulebook for that.  But shit does happen.  

For those concerned about this issue, I recommend a paid consultation with an experienced civil trial attorney licensed in your state of residence.  Insurance agents and underwriters mean well (usually), but they are not always well-informed on what risks their own companies' policies cover and do not cover. 

 

Many years ago I joined NASO (National Association of Sports Officials) after a recommendation from a RMI.  They have a number of coverages for officials in all organized competitive sports including shooting such as a $3,000,000 general liability coverage. If you are interested look into it. I also have instructors insurance thru the NRA since I teach both for them and USPSA.

 

Jay

Edited January 26, 2017 by JayWord
Clarification

[Brooke]

6 hours ago, Carmoney said:

I'm an attorney in real life and my practice is 100% devoted to defending civil lawsuits.  Here's my take on this:

When I run a match, or grab the timer and serve as an RO, I don't accept any compensation.  It is purely a volunteer effort on my part.  With that in mind, I am reasonably confident that in addition to whatever liability coverage may exist in the organization and/or local club, I should be covered by my own personal liability insurance (via homeowners and personal umbrella policies).  I am clearly not acting in a business capacity.  If my carrier (which is not one of my firm's insurance clients, by the way, for this very reason) tries to deny me a defense or indemnity, they will have a much bigger problem on their hands with the bad faith action they will be facing from me.

Fortunatey, serious injuries at our matches are incredibly rare.  We can thank the fact that we have a well-reasoned and mature rulebook for that.  But shit does happen.  

For those concerned about this issue, I recommend a paid consultation with an experienced civil trial attorney licensed in your state of residence.  Insurance agents and underwriters mean well (usually), but they are not always well-informed on what risks their own companies' policies cover and do not cover. 

 

 

6 hours ago, JayWord said:

Many years ago I joined NASO (National Association of Sports Officials) after a recommendation from a RMI.  They have a number of coverages for officials in all organized competitive sports including shooting such as a $3,000,000 general liability coverage. If you are interested look into it. I also have instructors insurance thru the NRA since I teach both for them and USPSA.

 

Jay

Thank both of you for seemingly sound advice!!

[jc3257]

I'm an attorney in real life and my practice is 100% devoted to defending civil lawsuits.  Here's my take on this:

When I run a match, or grab the timer and serve as an RO, I don't accept any compensation.  It is purely a volunteer effort on my part.  With that in mind, I am reasonably confident that in addition to whatever liability coverage may exist in the organization and/or local club, I should be covered by my own personal liability insurance (via homeowners and personal umbrella policies).  I am clearly not acting in a business capacity.  If my carrier (which is not one of my firm's insurance clients, by the way, for this very reason) tries to deny me a defense or indemnity, they will have a much bigger problem on their hands with the bad faith action they will be facing from me.

Fortunatey, serious injuries at our matches are incredibly rare.  We can thank the fact that we have a well-reasoned and mature rulebook for that.  But shit does happen.  

For those concerned about this issue, I recommend a paid consultation with an experienced civil trial attorney licensed in your state of residence.  Insurance agents and underwriters mean well (usually), but they are not always well-informed on what risks their own companies' policies cover and do not cover. 

 

Excellent advice! However, if your insurance agent doesn't understand the risk and how the policy will respond, you need a new agent. As an agent I will only confirm, we are agents of the company and do not control their checkbook! Many insurance companies will try to avoid paying claims if they see a way out and the potential claim is large. That is when we let the the attorneys and the courts figure it out. I've seen companies try to deny claims they should pay and pay claims they should have denied. Make sure you have a good agent and they put you with a good company! And have a good attorney on speed dial!


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[mreed911]

12 hours ago, JayWord said:

Many years ago I joined NASO (National Association of Sports Officials) after a recommendation from a RMI.  They have a number of coverages for officials in all organized competitive sports including shooting such as a $3,000,000 general liability coverage. If you are interested look into it. I also have instructors insurance thru the NRA since I teach both for them and USPSA.

I'd never heard of this organization.  Definitely worth checking out - thanks!

[peterthefish]

I'm not guessing here.  I spoke to my insurance agent, who has been an American Family rep for 25 years and he called the underwriters.  I have no coverage under my homeowners or any umbrella type policy that they have available for me.  Your insurance company might be different.

I do pay for the NRA instructors insurance out of my own pocket, which covers me for shooting related activities. 

I would suggest you call your agent and see about your own personal situation with your current insurance company.  The time to find out is not after the fact.

You might not be guessing but your agent was. I have access to American Family policy forms - there is no exclusion for firearms activities for either the Liability sections of the HO forms or their umbrella forms.

The only way that it might be excluded is via a manuscript endorsement - that would be exceedingly rare for an individual policy.

In addition, you can access to umbrella policies sold by any insurer - just not through your current agent.

If you think he's not guessing and I am, have him fax or email you the exclusionary language and post it up here.

[GBertolet]

Most clubs make all competitors sign a release, holding the club and match officials harmless. How well does this hold up in court? The way this discussion is going, the answer is probably not at all. This would indicate, whether you are running the timer, clipboard, taking registrations, or even being on the setup crew, would put you at risk of a financial disaster, because you would be part of the match staff. Not good! It would seem that buying your own insurance, even if it costs you a couple of hundred dollars a year would be imperative.

[Sarge]

I have heard from this forum and others that these waivers are generally worthless if something really bad happens

[Steve RA]

I was running the chrono at a match in Dallas - DPC - where  a young man was killed by a ricochet.  The Family would have settled if the coverage by the club would have paid 100%.  Someone from the insurance company came down and tried to lowball the family at 50% so they ended up filing a suit.

Ended up with the insurance company paying the full amount - plus a penalty - and all the club officers and range officers being hit.  I was running the chrono and my homeowners got hit for 7K.  Everyone's homeowners got hit except one RO who lived with his mother and had no Homeowners of his own.