Xtreme 147's - 9mm Glock 34

[phil plesetz]

Loading with HS6 4.6 grains and the accuracy stinks.

Previously HS6 with 115 grain bullets and were super accurate.

Increase the charge or get rid of the bullets? I'm in between the load manual Max & Min.

[Flatland Shooter]

Same problem.  I picked up 2000 on sale last Fall. 

My Glock 17 and 34 cannot shoot 147 Xtreme RN bullets worth a hoot.  I tried N320, N350 and Titegroup.

I'm having better luck with them in my PCC with N320.

[iflyskyhigh]

With 147gr plated, 4.8grs HS-6 seems to be the magic number. Tried 4.6grs and 5.0grs, and every thing in between. I was using Frontier plated bullets with that powder load and COAL of 1.145". Accuracy was uncanny. Chronographed at just under 900 FPS. I mainly shoot them suppressed out of my G34. Now I'm onto Rocky Mountain Reloading 147gr "Match" plated bullets. Match is quiet the misnomer. The length variation with these bullets is wildly inconsistent. But I got them on sale, with a discount, and now i'm stuck with 4000 of them. I'm still running 4.8grs, again tried everything between 4.6-5.0, but I had to shorten the COAL to 1.35 (or what turns out to be about 1.40-1.30 with these turds) but the accuracy is still pretty darn good. Just no where near what the Frontier Bullets were. I have also used the Xtreme 147gr. This formula also worked well with those, again just not as well as with the Frontier's. I was buying Xtreme's but I just couldn't never seem to find a really accurate load in any caliber, in any gun, out past 30' or so. In fact I have pretty much given up on plated bullets except of the the 147gr .355's. I'm also building a 9MM AR SBR as soon as my stamp comes back. I will also use this 147gr load in that rifle. I've pretty much moved onto FMJ's and JHP in every other weight and caliber, but for some reason no one makes a reasonably priced 147gr FMJ or JHP for bulk shooting. The only thing I shoot lead in anymore is coated heavy 300 Blackout bullets. Long story long, try the 4.8grs and a COAL in that vicinity and let me know how it works.

Set: 129
Created: 10/19/16 10:21AM
Description: Frontier 147gr PRN 9MM G34
Notes 1: Hornady 0.355 FMJ/RN ENC 35597 147 0.675
Notes 2: 4.8grs HS-6 Lonewolf Barrel (4.8grs AA#5 Avg 940FPS)
Distance to Chrono(FT): 5.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.212
Bullet Weight(gr): 147.00
Temp: 83 °F
BP: 27.70 inHg
Altitude: 1218.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
12 885 255.69 130.10
11 906 267.97 133.18
10 866 244.83 127.30
9 876 250.52 128.77
8 860 241.45 126.42
7 896 262.09 131.71
6 869 246.53 127.74
5 889 258.01 130.68
4 889 258.01 130.68
3 885 255.69 130.10
2 899 263.85 132.15
1 901 265.02 132.45
Average: 885.1 FPS
SD: 14.7 FPS
Min: 860 FPS
Max: 906 FPS
Spread: 46 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 887 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------

[rdinga]

if you leave everything else the same and substitute the precision delta 147 or the Zero 147 JHP-the groups will magically shrink

[phil plesetz]

i may go back to the 115's, but just bought 1000 of these 147's.  I did see the Lyman manual last night was up to 5.8 max while Hodgdon Max was 5.0.

[gerritm]

We have run 3.4grs of Titegroup with 147 xtreme HP out of our Glock 34's with decent accuracy. Never tried HS6.

gerritm

Edited January 25, 2017 by gerritm

[Dr Mitch]

3.2gr Titegroup.  131-133 power factor in a handgun.  Still very soft in a 16" barrel 9mm carbine, but makes 145 power factor.

[phil plesetz]

just an update on the reloads:

I upped the grains to 5.0 and 5.2 on some test loads as the 4.6 were super light . (Lyman Manual had 5.8 as a max) I had once again terrible groups at 30 feet along with key holing. I then shot my original 115 grain loads and they too now were grouping 6-8 inches at 30 feet. Cleaned the bore and the group came back to normal which is about 1.5 inches. (Nothing could be seen with the naked eye in the bore, but obviously something was in there)

[Kwal88007]

been shooting xtreme 124gr rn for a while from a g17 and g34 in minor power pistol 5.4gr oal 1.145  chrono is pf 144.  shoots great and very accurate w lone wolf barrel and carver comp. sjc mount w a c-more,  nice for steel, ipsc and uspsa..  my 2 cents

[iflyskyhigh]

 

Phil, consider this. The current MAP, or Max Average Standard Pressure according to SAAMI is 35,000 PSI where it was once 35,700 CUP. When you pressure test the older loads, they will be very close to the same pressure as SAAMI's spec for 9mm +P @ 38,500 PSI. Some newer reloaders believe that the +P rating is the result of increasing the MAP standard pressure by 10%. I mean if you multiply 35,000 by 1.1 you get 38,500. Sounds right . . . NOT. You don't have to be a math major to understand the fallacy of this. 35,700 CUP loads were tested by SAAMI's piezoelectric transducer system which are very similar in pressure to +P at 38,500 PSI. For many years after we had +Pink, the Europeans ignored the whole thing because they're using a couple of different system to test pressure that are superior to that SAAMI method. Now I'll quit bitchin'.

 

Back when I started handloading 9 x 19mm the pressure spec was still 35.700 CUP. Since the 9 x 19mm, and not including exotic cartridges outside of the mainstream, 2 powders could be counted on to achieve the highest velocity at safe pressure HS6 and Blue Dot. If you loot at the forum archives for loads @ 9mm Major, you'll see that HS6 was common for it back then and even today it's still one of the most popular powders for that application. The problem being that even though the SAAMI MAP was reduced to 35,000 PSI, data year after year has continually been downgraded. Somehow, even while using a piezoelectric transducer and viewing the entire pressure analysis on an oscilloscope in 1990 is somehow different from ding the same exact thing in 2017. To further illustrate the hypocrisy  of all of this, S&W introduces a cartridge that is not even close in casehead strength and SAAMI  allows them a MAP of 35,000 PSI. Shazam Gomer, or maybe Ka-Boom Gomer, that's wonderful. Then when SIG comes up with the 9mm offspring of the .40 S&W case with supposedly a thicker web and stronger casehead, SAAMI allows them a MAP of 40,000 PSI. It's beyond ridiculous and I've long held the theory that when SAAMI starts jacking around with pressure ratings, all they do is induce many to believe that ALL data is vastly underrated and they'll increase the powder charge until they get the velocity that they believe they should while not understanding the significance of things like pressure stability and a powders burn rate along with the necessity of using the correct OACL.

 

I could list data for HS6 from the SPEER #11 from the 80s, but I won't, Even data from Hodgdon load guides from when SAAMI reduced the MAP for 9 x 19mm, loads look a good bit different today, while to the best of my knowledge I am not aware of any change in chemistry for HS6. To wind this down, you can probably see where this is going. While a powder may be listed for 147 gr. bullets in 9mm, the slower types where their pressure rating has continually decreased, are not good choices.

 

Now, look back at the Lyman data and you'll see that the Max Charge tested 30,600 CUP. On the reverse side of what I described earlier, if you take a 35.000 PSI 9 x 19mm load and tested in the CUP system where the pnly real difference between the 2 pressure testing methods, and SAAMI syill recognizes data rated in Copper Units of Pressure, that 35,000 PSI load will pressure test around 33,000 CUP which, coincidentally is also used as SAAMI MAP when cartridges are tested with that method. And while the values in CUP are lower, you can still see that 33,000 CUP - 30,600 CUP = 2400 CUP left on the tale. Now some powder suppliers are further exacerbating the problem with minimum spec barrels and chambers to artificially inflate their pressure rating. While they don't mind showing you data that's near the 35,000 PSI limit, try and see if you an find any pressure rated data at around the 33,000 CUP MAP, or even the 40,000 MAP that was allowed for the .357 SiG.

 

Sorry for the speech! With Lyman's data you'll have much better results using powders shown to achieve the velocity you need where I'd be looking at 130 PF, and with pressures closer to their limit which is 33,000 CUP with Lyman testing being in CUP.

 

Wow. Just wow. This guy is the equivalent of an in person eat beating.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SOA1911]

57K, I have really enjoyed your post on the 9mm Luger's Max Charge and the history behind it. Phil, as 57K mentioned and if you can find it, you may want to try Ramshot Zip. It has become one of my favorite 9mm Luger powders. 

[phil plesetz]

for now I went back to my old load. 115 grn Berry. accurate/reliable just a touch more snap than i would like.

[njl]

Are you getting any tumbling/keyholing?  My 34 didn't like X-Treme 147s.  I tried running them faster, slower, made sure I wasn't crimping into them.  G17 shot them just fine.  G34 would tumble the same load.  I stopped buying them and moved to hi-tek coated 147s.

[lgh]

5 hours ago, SOA1911 said:

57K, I have really enjoyed your post on the 9mm Luger's Max Charge and the history behind it. Phil, as 57K mentioned and if you can find it, you may want to try Ramshot Zip. It has become one of my favorite 9mm Luger powders. 

 

How does Ramshot Zip meter in a Dillon 650?

[lgh]

Thanks 57K. I wanted to start using up my 231 in a 147gr load but the Winchester 14 ed. manual gives weird data. Using 147 cast FP, min 3.3 and max 3.5 with corresponding pressures of 29000 and 32100 psi.  That range of charge wt seems really narrow for 231. If the data is accurate (and I have my doubts), the pressure curve seems to be acting weird behind a 147 bullet and I don't feel like screwing around with it when there are other powders. Powder availability becomes the issue.

[lgh]

Thanks 57K.  That 5.2 is still below the listed max of 5.3 in the Lyman manual that uses that REALLY short OAL. They really jam that stubby sum bitch in there!  With a substantially bigger case volume, 5.2 should be safe.  But good to know that True Blue is pretty pressure stable. I don't have any Blue but I have a bunch of 340 I'm going to load up using the same logic. People here really like True Blue and Ramshot Zip, both of which I have to order online. I keep choking on the hazardous material charge but once I get over that and use up some of the 340 I'm going to try them.

 

Messing around with powder charge can be dangerous if you have a lower than listed case volume and are trying to guestimate what charge should be. A lot safer if your volume is greater than listed but one still has to be careful.

[lgh]

Got it.  Thanks.

 

Chrono'd the 340 tonight. It's running at about 970 for lowest charge weight on the VV range of wts. for same OAL as I'm using.  I'm looking for 900. Also, I didn't like the recoil impulse. Normally, I am not concerned with impulse/recoil issues but decided I'll "game it" with some rounds using low velocity, reduced springs, etc..  So I need a different powder(s) to play around with. I think I gotta suck it up on the haz material charge and get some 1 lb canisters.  Or ... I got a ton of Titegroup I use on 45 but I'm usually slow to use it in high pressure stuff like 9mm (and it didn't work at all for me in 38 sp) and it is not recommended for some of my bullets.  People here seem to love it for  9mm Minor, have not reported guns blowing up in their hands, and don't get leading. So I think I might just give it a go. At low to mid charge wt.  Obviously, I'm a risk averse kinda guy. I sleep well at night.

Edited February 1, 2017 by lgh
addition

[lgh]

"If you go to a load that has a higher charge than those previously fired and there is no velocity gain over a lower charge. I would definitely back down to the lower charge where velocity is still on the increase over those previously." This is incredibly important. If charge goes up and there is no change in velocity, you are in a dangerous place. Back off.

[lgh]

I was following VV's own data with Bayou 147.  I have usually used Precision bullets in 9mm, going back to the days when I think they were called Black Panthers or something like that.  Manufacturer says we shouldn't use TG with Precision bullets (temps too high) although I do in 45 because I started before the recommendation came out and never had a problem. Even though there is lots of load data for TG in 9mm, I wouldn't use TG with Precision in 9mm because I don't like cleaning lead out of barrels.

 

I just re-started reloading 9mm after over a decade and picked up some Bayou bullets to try with different powders. Lots of load data for TG, I have 8# of it, and the gamers seem to love the stuff.  When in Rome ...