HELP............

[mitchiepinoy]

37 minutes ago, MikieM said:

Don't temp me.

Hahahahahaha CKARMS will take care of you "IF" you will have issue like this.   less headache means more time to shoot and reliable gun will get you anywhere  

[MikieM]

I'm going to look at the extractor next. I know it's loose in it's tunnel when the slide is off the gun, and the extractions have been erratic. Some off to the side, some into the bill of my cap. And, if the round isn't camming under the hook when feeding, then the problem could be there.

Any other suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Mike.

 

[mscott]

 I had a bunch of trouble with my TruBore in 9mm when I first got it and tried about everything including slide stop, extractor, ejector, etc. Finally at a match I borrowed a friends 38 super magazine and the gun run perfectly. Turned out my feed lips needed tweaked in more than anybody else's apparently. If I keep them at about .340 the gun runs  perfectly on about any ammo. I really couldn't believe that ALL of my mags were junk, but it turned out to be true.

I also have a Matchmaster that doesn't run well with those mags, so I have to maintain 2 sets of mags. Matchmaster mags are in the .355 neighborhood.

Edited January 22, 2017 by mscott

[sitw]

 

14 hours ago, MikieM said:

I'm going to look at the extractor next. I know it's loose in it's tunnel when the slide is off the gun, and the extractions have been erratic. Some off to the side, some into the bill of my cap. And, if the round isn't camming under the hook when feeding, then the problem could be there.

Any other suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Mike.

 

Be more specific on how you tuned your mags, what do you have the feed lips at?

Yes on the round not coming up under the extractor.  Is it an Aftec extractor?  The next time it happens, look at the rim of the cartridge to see if it is not even starting to move up under the extractor.  If this is the case, you need to tune the extractor. Speaking of the extractor, what do you mean by "loose in its tunnel when the slide is off the gun"?  It shouldn't be loose.

And as the other said, you were loading way too short, not only possible feeding problems, but if loading 9mm major, pressure problems.

[MikieM]

23 minutes ago, sitw said:

 

Be more specific on how you tuned your mags, what do you have the feed lips at?

Yes on the round not coming up under the extractor.  Is it an Aftec extractor?  The next time it happens, look at the rim of the cartridge to see if it is not even starting to move up under the extractor.  If this is the case, you need to tune the extractor. Speaking of the extractor, what do you mean by "loose in its tunnel when the slide is off the gun"?  It shouldn't be loose.

And as the other said, you were loading way too short, not only possible feeding problems, but if loading 9mm major, pressure problems.

Mags are tuned as per Dawson recommendations. .350 at the back of the feed lips and .355 at the front. Mag bodies are all 1.370 inches.

When the slide is off it is easy to move the extractor back and forth in the housing.

Now loading at 1.160 inches.

I now have an extractor tuning fixture, and extractor tension test tool on order from Brownell's.

This a new STI DVC in 9 mm. It is under warranty, but I don't want it gone for who knows how long. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by MikieM

[sitw]

Sounds like the extractor is not and Aftec.  If it is actually loose in the tunnel they forgot to tension it properly.  To confirm we are talking about the same thing, you can do this test.

Take the slide off, barrel out, so you just have the slide with the extractor in place.  Slip a loaded round up under the extractor to where the extractor hook is aligned with the center axis of the round.  Shake the slide lightly in all directions.  If it falls out there is too little tension on the extractor.  When you tension it, don't go too far the other direction and put too much tension on it or you will get failures.

Also, there is more to tuning an extractor than just setting the tension.  By tuning I am talking about radiusing, smoothing, and polishing the bottom of the extractor hook and the bottom of the extractor groove belly.  By bottom, the part that the rim of the round comes up and contacts as it is pushed up from the mag.

[MikieM]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:30 AM, sitw said:

Sounds like the extractor is not and Aftec.  If it is actually loose in the tunnel they forgot to tension it properly.  To confirm we are talking about the same thing, you can do this test.

Take the slide off, barrel out, so you just have the slide with the extractor in place.  Slip a loaded round up under the extractor to where the extractor hook is aligned with the center axis of the round.  Shake the slide lightly in all directions.  If it falls out there is too little tension on the extractor.  When you tension it, don't go too far the other direction and put too much tension on it or you will get failures.

Also, there is more to tuning an extractor than just setting the tension.  By tuning I am talking about radiusing, smoothing, and polishing the bottom of the extractor hook and the bottom of the extractor groove belly.  By bottom, the part that the rim of the round comes up and contacts as it is pushed up from the mag.

Agreed. That's my next project as soon as the tools get here. It is quite possible that, like you say, the extractor was forgotten about.

I may open the magazine feed lips to .360, but first the extractor.

Edited January 23, 2017 by MikieM

[MikieM]

Another question. Would I be better off with an Aftec extractor rather than the OEM?

I adjusted the stock extractor to 1/8 inch, but it was a bit too much. The feed problem was gone, and extraction/ejection was fine, but the slide would not quite close (maybe 150 thousandths) on some rounds, and I needed to give it a little push to close fully. Obviously I bent the extractor a tad too much although that's easily fixed.  

Edited January 23, 2017 by MikieM

[Expflier]

IMO yes changing to an Aftec is probably the most common change made to a DVC. There's a reason why CK and other gun makers use them - simple and efficient. 

[sitw]

Did you radius and smooth the bottom of the hook and the groove belly?  And are you still using a 7lb recoil spring?  Yeah, you probably have a tad too much tension on it now, but you are close.  Throw in an 8 and see if that helps before screwing around with the extractor again. If it runs, oil the crap out of it and run 1,000 rounds through it.  Then report back.

The Aftec hook and groove belly still need cleaned up a bit and the springs pre-compressed.  I have even seen where some run with a single spring to get things running smooth.  But overall I think the Aftec is a tad easier to get working right and they generally last to a higher round count.

Edited January 24, 2017 by sitw

[MikieM]

1 hour ago, sitw said:

Did you radius and smooth the bottom of the hook and the groove belly?  And are you still using a 7lb recoil spring?  Yeah, you probably have a tad too much tension on it now, but you are close.  Throw in an 8 and see if that helps before screwing around with the extractor again. If it runs, oil the crap out of it and run 1,000 rounds through it.  Then report back.

The Aftec hook and groove belly still need cleaned up a bit and the springs pre-compressed.  I have even seen where some run with a single spring to get things running smooth.  But overall I think the Aftec is a tad easier to get working right and they generally last to a higher round count.

Yes, the 7 pound spring was in it. I'll install the 8 tomorrow, before I go to the range.

The STI DVC extractor came with the bevel on the bottom side of the hook, and the correct radius behind the hook. It's plated like all the other parts, so nothing needed to be done to it as far as polishing is concerned. Thanks for the help.

Edited January 24, 2017 by MikieM

[Mikeski]

5 hours ago, Expflier said:

IMO yes changing to an Aftec is probably the most common change made to a DVC. There's a reason why CK and other gun makers use them - simple and efficient. 

I have a DVC Open in 38sc and was having a similar problem with both MBX and STI mags. I removed the stock extractor and put in the Aftec and it's been running like a charm ever since. 

[MikieM]

9 hours ago, Mikeski said:

I have a DVC Open in 38sc and was having a similar problem with both MBX and STI mags. I removed the stock extractor and put in the Aftec and it's been running like a charm ever since. 

To heck with it. That's what I'm going to do.

Did you leave out the front spring, at first, or did you use both right from the start?

[Mikeski]

4 minutes ago, MikieM said:

To heck with it. That's what I'm going to do.

Did you leave out the front spring, at first, or did you use both right from the start?

I left the first spring out. It seems to run well with only the one spring.

[Expflier]

Leaving out a spring makes it a lot easier to install. I would order another set of springs for $5 when you see how small they are you'll understand why.

[gerritm]

16 hours ago, Mikeski said:

I have a DVC Open in 38sc and was having a similar problem with both MBX and STI mags. I removed the stock extractor and put in the Aftec and it's been running like a charm ever since. 

Same with mine, I used both springs, but I think that was a little too much tension. I would have a case stick every once in awhile. I would use 1 spring.

gerritm

[sitw]

Like I said, some run with one spring.  My .40 limited I use one spring with the Aftec, my 9mm Open runs fine with both.  With the tuned mags and extractor I can even run factory short ammo in my limited gun which is not always the case with .40 limited guns.

Edited January 27, 2017 by sitw

[BeerBaron]

What I was advised to do with the aftec was run only the rear spring for 500-1000 rounds. Then move that spring to the front and put a fresh one in the rear. After 5,000 more rounds do the same again (move rear spring to front and put fresh one in rear) and keep doing this ad infinitum. 

[MikieM]

9 hours ago, BeerBaron said:

What I was advised to do with the aftec was run only the rear spring for 500-1000 rounds. Then move that spring to the front and put a fresh one in the rear. After 5,000 more rounds do the same again (move rear spring to front and put fresh one in rear) and keep doing this ad infinitum. 

Thanks BB. I've got one coming from Dawson. Should be here tomorrow.

I assume this set-up has worked well for you?

[ano]

I ran mine for 25-30k rounds now, they were.. pretty short now  

[BeerBaron]

My current aftecs are only about 2,000 rounds on one and basically nothing on the other but yes, the 'main' one is running with just the rear spring in and has run very well from the get go (breaking in the gun too which was also new). 

 

I will probably pop it out and add the new spring to the rear and move the current rear to the front within the next 500 rounds or so. 

 

With the aftec it's important to follow the fitting instructions for the firing pin stop plate. 

 

Unlike regular extractors the aftec doesn't 'bend' for tension. It effectively moves along its whole length in the channel and kind of pivots at the middle section with the springs. Because it pivots like that, in order for the front claw to move freely the rear must also move freely at the firing pin stop. We are not talking about much movement here but it must have some clearance there otherwise it will always have way too much extractor tension. 

 

The aftec is great but but it does need some fitting/setup as it operates totally differently to regular extractors. 

 

Hth. 

[MikieM]

I got the Aftec in today and installed it as per instructions, but left out the front spring.

I went to the range and ran 150 rounds through the gun (DVC Open) with no feed or ejection problems out of the first three magazines, 75 rounds or so.

After that I began to have feeding problems like before about once, or twice, per magazine.

Ammo was 7 grains of WAC, under a 115 grain PD/JHP, loaded to 1.165 inches. Pretty near a 170 PF.

I believe the addition of the front spring will finally solve my problem, but I won't know until tomorrow. We've got another 65 degree day coming up and then colder weather will follow after that.

 

 

[MikieM]

Urethra, I mean Eureka!  100 rounds down the tube and not one hiccup out of my DVC Open. Feeds and extracts perfectly.

I put the front spring back into the Aftec and that did the trick.

Can anyone tell me why STI didn't do this in the first place?  

[BeerBaron]

I can. Aftec costs $85 retail (maybe $50-$60 at trade to sti). Their own conventional extractor costs them about 10 bux. $50 per gun adds up. 

[sitw]

But the $50 per gun isn't worth the customer dissatisfaction in my opinion.  He should not have had to monkey around with it as much as he did.

 

As BeerBaron said, you have to make sure you put angles on the firing pin stop on the side the extractor goes on to.  Also, buff the rounded rear portion of the Aftec, it helps with the movement needed that BB mentioned.  You basically just buff off the coating, don't remove any metal.  Glad to see you are closing in on getting her to run right.