Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Production "Box"


Action Pistolero

Recommended Posts

Maybe I've been sleeping or this just came up.

Received one of the competition emails and in there was an article on Carolyn Chin. I was curious because this woman is the one that calls you if you don't get your match fees to NRA. She calls you but you can't get a hold of her. Anyways, to the right of that article was a blurb about Bianchi. I clicked on it and read about the format. At the bottom was a 'New for this Year". It says all Production guns must fit into a box. What box?? How big is this box? Is it big enough to hold a revolver??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's in the box?!?

There aren't too many guns that fit the maximum barrel length, and no magazine extension rules that won't fit in the USPSA box.

I am not sure that introducing the box is that hot of an idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Might have to use a banana box for all those 686 wheel guns? I thought the Springfield XDM 5 inch was OK for Production in Action but not for Production in  IPSC?/USPSA? Anyone know? A box big enough for an XDM will probably fit a 1911. Hope the box size is published soon, ditto the rest of the Program containing the awards if any for match X,

 

Edited by Chris1911
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Chris1911 said:

Might have to use a banana box for all those 686 wheel guns? I thought the Springfield XDM 5 inch was OK for Production in Action but not for Production in  IPSC?/USPSA? Anyone know? A box big enough for an XDM will probably fit a 1911. Hope the box size is published soon, ditto the rest of the Program containing the awards if any for match X,

 

You can fit up to a 1911 with up to a 5.4" barrel. Larger magwells and safeties might present issues with the width.

The 5.25" XDM is legal for USPSA Production because we use the box exclusively, but is illegal for IPSC Production because they have a maximum allowed barrel length of 5". Also the IPSC Production minimum 5lb trigger pull puts striker guns at a disadvantage, as DA/SA guns only are tested in double action.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1911 not allowed in production in anyway, so irrelevant. USPSA rules and IPSC never applied here.

What is relevant, is revolvers. Stock 6" 686 has always been allowed in Production, to stop the match becoming auto-centric. What was wrong with the rules we have / had. Autos won in the past. You can change the barrel in an auto to any brand that is available, but due to the "no exterior mods" rules you can only use a factory barrel in a revolver.

Rule changes need to be published minimum 13 months before the Cup they apply to. That is finish one Cup and those rules apply, 1 year to get ready for the next. Or in the case of many, not fecking go!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, gm iprod said:

Rule changes need to be published minimum 13 months before the Cup they apply to. That is finish one Cup and those rules apply, 1 year to get ready for the next. Or in the case of many, not fecking go!

They would only do that if they cared what the silly peons thought. They want to make it like IDPA where you find out at the match that your gun has suddenly been deemed illegal in the last week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Box.

I recently inquired about this as well, after hearing about a box. Being one who got caught up in NRA's indecisiveness over details, especially in Production, I wanted to be as sure as is possible in advance. I was provided as an answer to a link to the box Dawson Precision makes. After looking at the Dawson link and box, I Immediately had another level of questions, which to no surprise could not be answered.

My questions came about because The Dawson box is convertible. In other words it will measure for USPSA standards, or if one uses the supplied insert, then, it can be used for IDPA. My specific question was, what is the dimension of the box passed by NRA Committee, and was it to be two dimensional or three dimensional? Only told , "the box" and that it would be 3 dimensional.

 

Here is what I know, or think I know based on the link provided in response to my question.

The " Box" for Production.  If they use:

USPSA rules, the gun must fit in a box 8 15/16" x 6" x 1 5/8" (Production revolver excluded?)

IDPA rules, the gun must fit in a box 8 3/4" x 6" x 1/5/8" (Production revolver excluded?) 

I do not know if other changes will apply to other existing Production rules. Must gun fit in box with magazine inserted is yet another question? Sadly, if past is prologue, some will find out well in advance or already know, some will find out at equipment check in, while others will not find out until after they have shot.

Good luck getting a definitive, absolute ruling.

Cheers,

MJ

Edited by Allgoodhits
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Allgoodhits said:

The Box.

I recently inquired about this as well, after hearing about a box. Being one who got caught up in NRA's indecisiveness over details, especially in Production, I wanted to be as sure as is possible in advance. I was provided as an answer to a link to the box Dawson Precision makes. After looking at the Dawson link and box, I Immediately had another level of questions, which to no surprise could not be answered.

My questions came about because The Dawson box is convertible. In other words it will measure for USPSA standards, or if one uses the supplied insert, then, it can be used for IDPA. My specific question was, what is the dimension of the box passed by NRA Committee, and was it to be two dimensional or three dimensional? Only told , "the box" and that it would be 3 dimensional.

 

Here is what I know, or think I know based on the link provided in response to my question.

The " Box" for Production.  If they use:

USPSA rules, the gun must fit in a box 8 15/16" x 6" x 1 5/8" (Production revolver excluded?)

IDPA rules, the gun must fit in a box 8 3/4" x 6" x 1/5/8" (Production revolver excluded?) 

I do not know if other changes will apply to other existing Production rules. Must gun fit in box with magazine inserted is yet another question? Sadly, if past is prologue, some will find out well in advance or already know, some will find out at equipment check in, while others will not find out until after they have shot.

Good luck getting a definitive, absolute ruling.

Cheers,

MJ

From the official 2017 program.

"New for 2017 All Production pistols will now be required to pass the “Production Box” test. Firearm and magazine must fit completely within the box and the lid must close completely without force, to pass inspection."

I'm thinking that the magazine will need to be inserted but no indication of which size box. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, toothguy said:

From the official 2017 program.

"New for 2017 All Production pistols will now be required to pass the “Production Box” test. Firearm and magazine must fit completely within the box and the lid must close completely without force, to pass inspection."

I'm thinking that the magazine will need to be inserted but no indication of which size box. 

Four things which should be clarified, which are not in the quoted text, and the quoted text does not reference any other source.

Dimensions, three, of the box. (Be clear)

Magazine in box, does not say magazine in gun. (Be clear)

The "Dawson Box" does not have a lid. It is essentially a frame. A straight edge is used to determine if there is a width issue. (Be clear)

Are revolvers pistols? (Be clear)

Simply and easily addressing these four vague areas would make things so much easier, simpler for all. It would have taken seconds to add clear language. How much time, with how many posts will transpire with our worthless opinions as to what exactly they meant? BTW, I have already spoken to a seasoned NRA referee. Only referred to Dawson Box for answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Allgoodhits said:

Simply and easily addressing these four vague areas would make things so much easier, simpler for all. It would have taken seconds to add clear language. How much time, with how many posts will transpire with our worthless opinions as to what exactly they meant? BTW, I have already spoken to a seasoned NRA referee. Only referred to Dawson Box for answer.

Yes, it's the official program.  It's the opportunity to introduce to everyone a "new" requirement.  Hard to understand why that requirement is not clarified, so Production shooters could make sure they are in compliance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even though I usually shoot Metallic, I've been thinking about shooting Open or Production to increase my chances of getting into the finals, and thus, the prizes (because there's 4 solid 1900 shooters in Met, and I can't quite get there currently).  Anyhoo, if I shoot Production it'll most certainly be with my K38, which I'm certain won't fit in a box.  That concerns me.  It would make sense to simply exempt revolvers since there's not a whole lot of external tomfoolery that can be gamed into one aside from grips.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Production isn't much easier these days.

More than likely they will exempt revolvers from the box. It appears they just copied and pasted it form the USPSA rule book, and since USPSA put revolvers in their own division, IIRC it doesn't have the exemption in the rules.

But it would make life so much easier if they operated like USPSA and had major rules changes published well before they go in effect. So people can understand them, and point out any issues before they are implemented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 5:53 PM, Allgoodhits said:

The Box.

I recently inquired about this as well. Being one who got caught up in NRA's indecisiveness over details, especially in Production. I wanted to be as sure as is possible. I was provided a link to the box Dawson Precision makes. Immediately, I had another level of questions, which to no surprise could not be answered.

My questions came about because The Dawson box is convertible. In other words it will measure for USPSA standards, or if one uses the supplied insert, then, it can be used for IDPA. My specific question was, what is the dimension of the box passed by NRA Committee, and was it to be two dimensional or three dimensional? Only told , "the box".

 

Here is what I know, or think I know.

If they use:

USPSA rules, the gun must fit in a box 8 15/16" x 6" x 1 5/8" (Production revolver excluded?)

IDPA rules, the gun must fit in a box 8 3/4" x 6" x 1/5/8" (Production revolver excluded?) 

I do not know if other changes will apply to other existing Production rules. Must gun fit in box with magazine inserted is yet another question? If past is prologue, some will find out well in advance, some will find out at equipment check in, while others will not find out until after they have shot.

Good luck getting a definitive, absolute ruling.

 

Cheers,

MJ

Here it was I received from Damien today regarding the Production box questions.

" We are waiting on the final minutes from the Comp Rules committee to be 100% sure that the wording that was submitted was in fact what was adopted.  It should be online and in the Bianchi Program by mid next week. 

 The box will be used in the USPSA dimensions, NOT the IDPA dimensions.  The magazine must be in the pistol.  Revolver will most likely not have a box this year.  Chances are there will in 2018.  All other existing Production rules apply."

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/18/2017 at 5:26 PM, DWFAN said:

I agree. Im not sure what AP problem the USPSA box solves.... ?

 

This is the crux of the matter. What has been a problem in the Production Division that they need  to introduce a box? I honestly cannot think of one. The rules simply state :-

3.2.1.The firearm shall have no visible external modifications except as follows:
(a) Factory grips may be modifi ed to fi t the competitor’s hand,
or facilitate loading, through the use of checkering, stippling,
grip tape and sleeves. 

  As far as I can see that covers all the external mods they may effect size in the box.

  We need less rules not more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Service Desk said:

I would hazard a guess and say that an XDM 5.25 , Gock 34 and M&P Pro will fit in the box, how about a CZ Shadow 2 ?

 

 

Those are all USPSA Production approved so unless you change things on them they will fit.

 

In a stock form everything on this list will fit in the box.
https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...