RH45 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I downloaded the new rulebook, and see references to PCC, but, can't find any rules on them. Does anybody have a link to approved mods, and what isn't legal? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 As best I can tell, PCC is now in the Specialty Division along with the Carry Optics, Carry Comps, Ghost Ring Sights, etc. Not many restrictions, not many opportunities, either. I would not buy a gun for the purpose for fear they would write it out of contention like they did for CCP. If you have something reasonably suitable already, talk to your MD and see if he will accommodate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 Thanks Jim! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telligentgunner Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/themes/idpa/assets/match-files/PCC_Rules.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Don't shoot it, once you do your pistols will gather dust. PCC is so much fun. Also you can be a not so great shooter and finish at the top of the scores. The rules are very loose. They have developed a classifier for it so maybe it will be around for a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Keep in mind PCC is not recognized at many matches/clubs. Even some that do accept it put some "creative" start positions for PCC in the stage description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Paul-the new guy said: Also you can be a not so great shooter and finish at the top of the scores. I'm not understanding your point. PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters. IDPA doesn't recognize an overall high score in their matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, BillR1 said: I'm not understanding your point. PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters. IDPA doesn't recognize an overall high score in their matches. You should remind the pistol guys of that. They hate seeing PCC at the top every month... You can say all you want that PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters but it seems everyone looks at the overall... You are right, clubs are doing some creative things in an attempt to move PCC shooters down in the scores in spite of the fact that they only shoot against other PCC shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Paul-the new guy said: You should remind the pistol guys of that. They hate seeing PCC at the top every month... You can say all you want that PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters but it seems everyone looks at the overall... You are right, clubs are doing some creative things in an attempt to move PCC shooters down in the scores in spite of the fact that they only shoot against other PCC shooters. Wow...why would someone even look at the unfiltered view? Also, it's much easier for clubs to simply create two matches in Practiscore, and have one for rifles and one for pistols. I also like how they're running PCCs at the IDPA Worlds this coming year...they're putting PCCs in a totally separate match, as they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, BillR1 said: Wow...why would someone even look at the unfiltered view? I also like how they're running PCCs at the IDPA Worlds this coming year...they're putting PCCs in a totally separate match, as they should be. Many people, myself included, still like to see how they did against everyone. So are they having different stages for the PCC shooters or just scoring it as a separate match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: Many people, myself included, still like to see how they did against everyone. So are they having different stages for the PCC shooters or just scoring it as a separate match? I'm curious...why would you care at all how you did against a pistol shooter? They're shooting PCCs at Worlds as a separate match on a different day. IMO, if PCCs are finishing at the top of the mythical "overall" rankings, then the stage designer is simply lazy or too busy. That silliness can easily be prevented! Edited January 23, 2019 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 38 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: It would be nice if you noted which of these shooters were shooting PCC...(so their scores could be compared to pistol scores) and when the match occurred. I know several of these shooters. GOF You should remind the pistol guys of that. They hate seeing PCC at the top every month... You can say all you want that PCC shooters only compete against other PCC shooters but it seems everyone looks at the overall... You are right, clubs are doing some creative things in an attempt to move PCC shooters down in the scores in spite of the fact that they only shoot against other PCC shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 18 minutes ago, BillR1 said: PCCs are finishing at the top of the mythical "overall" rankings, then the stage designer is simply lazy or too busy. That silliness can easily be prevented! I agree, in USPSA matches many times the PCC's are mixed among the other divisions in the unfiltered scores. Stage design has everything to do with it. Sometimes a stage can be shot easier with a pistol. Example: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, GOF said: It would be nice if you noted which of these shooters were shooting PCC...(so their scores could be compared to pistol scores) and when the match occurred Well, the only one I cared about was me... lol This was the January match at Central Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I haven't shot pcc in any big idpa matches but in a dozen local ones at 2 different clubs. It is laughable how easy the typical idpa stage is with a pcc. Even if someone adds in goofy stuff. The only reason for a pcc shooter to not be the lowest time of the day is their gun wasn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 17 minutes ago, rowdyb said: I haven't shot pcc in any big idpa matches but in a dozen local ones at 2 different clubs. It is laughable how easy the typical idpa stage is with a pcc. Even if someone adds in goofy stuff. The only reason for a pcc shooter to not be the lowest time of the day is their gun wasn't working. I agree about the "typical stage". That's why I'd never use typical stages if PCCs are allowed in and registered to shoot. A little creativity by the stage designer can level the playing field considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, rowdyb said: I haven't shot pcc in any big idpa matches but in a dozen local ones at 2 different clubs. It is laughable how easy the typical idpa stage is with a pcc. Even if someone adds in goofy stuff. The only reason for a pcc shooter to not be the lowest time of the day is their gun wasn't working. This is how I would imagine it going, most shots being under 15 yards and full second scoring with no draw and no reload you'll be pretty hard to beat. Not to mention most IDPA matches the the average shooter is probably low C to D class. I would think you'd need for force downloaded starts and have hard leans in both directions with tight shooting area's to try to offset the difference. The more difficult you make the shooting the easier it will be for PCC, you have to make the gun handling part hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Just now, Racinready300ex said: This is how I would imagine it going, most shots being under 15 yards and full second scoring with no draw and no reload you'll be pretty hard to beat. Not to mention most IDPA matches the the average shooter is probably low C to D class. I would think you'd need for force downloaded starts and have hard leans in both directions with tight shooting area's to try to offset the difference. The more difficult you make the shooting the easier it will be for PCC, you have to make the gun handling part hard. Yep, exactly. All mags loaded to 10 rounds, lots of hard leans, unloaded starts for PCCs. Open unloaded box starts are always fun too. Since the PCC can't fit in the box, it has to be staged "nearby". What's "nearby"? IMO, 2-3 yards away is nearby. Shooting tight shots from a vehicle is fun also. Like I said, a little creativity by the stage designer can drastically reduce the advantage of a PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Downloaded starts are silly, as are weird start positions. What I think evens the playing field is tight shooting positions with close targets. Throw in some hard cover and a guy trying to go fast can get tripped up. Put good PCC shooters on the same squad and as they race each other the PD's add up. Drawing to a 3-5 yard target from behind a barricade -vs- coming up from the muzzle on the barricade to the same target has to be about the same for better shooters. Small windows or shooting positions with close targets, wide transitions and no shoots mixed in I think slows down the PCC shooters also. The egdge will still go to PCC's for the most part. I hope they don't change the rules up too much as they move forward. I broke some bones in my wrist and hand and arthritis moved in so I don't do as well with a pistol anymore. PCC has brought the fun back for me in all the disciplines not just IDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) Just for fun I went back and looked at some scores of me shooting pcc in idpa. The time difference is crazy. The dot and 30 round mags make it nigh impossible to beat. Same as when I shoot CO and my times are better than SSP, just the simple addition of the optic makes a nice difference. On stage design, if you build something to jack with the pcc guys you're probably also making something that sucks for the rest of the folks as well. Hard leans? I turn on my laser. Tight positions as well? I collapse the stock. My pcc reload isn't really enough slower to cause a big issue on a stage. My pistol slide lock reloads are 1.7 seconds on average. My same reload on a pcc is 2.3, the half second slower there is nothing at all compared to the time I gain everywhere else. Edited January 24, 2019 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I still say the easiest solution (if you're going to allow PCCs at all) is to simply create a separate match for pistols and rifles in Practiscore and then run the two matches at the same time. That way you don't have pistol scores in the rifle match results and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, BillR1 said: I still say the easiest solution (if you're going to allow PCCs at all) is to simply create a separate match for pistols and rifles in Practiscore and then run the two matches at the same time. That way you don't have pistol scores in the rifle match results and vice versa. Well then why not create a different match for every division? I think if a club has a problem with PCC they just need to get over it. We can't all be Rowdy rock stars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: Well then why not create a different match for every division? I think if a club has a problem with PCC they just need to get over it. Rifle and pistol differences are a bit more than just a different division... A separate match is the way PCC is being done at Worlds this year, and I think it's a great idea. Have the rifles and the pistols compete separately and post the scores separately also. As for getting "over it"...PCC is still an optional division and at the discretion of the MD. Until such time that it becomes a required division for a Tier 1 match, we won't be including it. If that time comes, I can then get creative with the stages and match registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, BillR1 said: Rifle and pistol differences are a bit more than just a different division...Until such time that it becomes a required division for a Tier 1 match, we won't be including it. If that time comes, I can then get creative with the stages and match registration. Thankfully A. I am not at your club and B. all shooters have the option to vote with their feet and wallet. The club I was shooting at already did the "creative" BS. I am fortunate to have several other options so I just shoot where ALL the division are welcome. I guess you are just one of the many butt hurt pistol shooters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Paul-the new guy said: I guess you are just one of the many butt hurt pistol shooters... OK, but I'm still curious? Since PCCs are not competing against pistols in IDPA anyway, why is it considered "butthurt" to insure that the posted results are kept separate? What possible value or reason would there be to compare your score to someone using drastically different equipment and stage procedures? Could it be that rifle shooters really DO desire to compete directly against pistol shooters? Why else would you care how the match scores are listed...? Edited January 24, 2019 by BillR1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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