An Alternative way to use the Lee Load Master

[Livin_cincy]

I currently have a turret press and am considering a progressive.   This topic is about an alternative method of using the LLM and not the way it is set up in the directions.  There are plenty of resources on setting up the Lee Load Master according to the manual.

As I look at all colors / brands of progressive presses there are Common issues.

1. Spent primers & spent primer residue/ gunk jamming up the press.
2. Nobody claims to have primer seating problems but you read about the solutions.   So they must exist.  
3. Squibs
4. Separate stations for bullet seating and crimp.

The spent primer and residue gunk problem is easily solved by preparing the brass before you clean it.   If you deprime first you get clean primer pockets as well.  This is out of line with how a Progressive Press works.  They save you time by doing this as part of the process.  But this creates problems with the primers and residue.  You also never look in the pocket before you reload. So lets remove this from the process and use a single stage to resize & deprime before cleaning. So now we start with clean, deprimed brass.

So now we have priming.  Priming always has a certain number of issues on a progressive do to the operations in the other dies.  The primer seating correctly is very important.  I look at the various hand primers and ponder why not hand prime ?  You have clean brass so you can do this in the living room while watching TV.  You also gain that each ones seating has been checked.  So this is a win win solution.

So when you look at the press designs they do not start on station 1 with flare & add powder.  But now we can.  This opens ups stations for other operations.

So if we think outside the box we could set up a LLM to run differently.  

• The LLM is unique in that it has manual or auto index.
• Case Feeder is standard
• Price Point.

So set up your LLM with case feeder & Stations like this:

1. Install your AutoDrum Powder measure with case expansion die.  I use it on my turret without a  chain and it works fine.
2. RCBS Powder lockout die.  The primer system is removed.  It will be hard to see inside the case in this rearward position so this die solves that problem.
3. Hornady Bullet Feed die.  This is where the powder drop is normally.
4. Bullet seating die
5. Lee FCD

The benefits are

1. You do not have primer residue mess to clean up and jam up your press.  So it this is time saved in cleaning and frustration.
2. The depriming and resizing operation requires significantly more force than any other operation,  This causes that ever so slight shell plate flexing and bench flexing.
3. You have a powder check die to remove squib problems.  You can focus on the powder measure and watch it move smoothly or not to ensure consistent throws. 
4. A reliable, simple bullet feeder.  
5. Separate seating & crimping stations.  So you could use a micrometer seating die

Your thoughts ?

**** Please do not post a comment explaining how the stations on a Lee Load Master are set up according to the directions.   That was answered in the title of this discussion.  ****
 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Livin_cincy

[jmorris]

Nothing wrong with doing it however you like.  My first thought was that I would load 100 rounds and be done before you finished depriming your first 100 cases.

I would be finished with another 100 before you could hand prime them and another 100 when you loaded.

So at best 3 times longer for the same amount of ammunition.

By the way on the "priming issues do to the other dies" part, the Loadmaster and 1050 are the only two presses that have any cases in any die at the time of priming.  If you are having issues with the Loadmaster priming, you might try and add a die to station #2 to center the case in the shell plate.

The chain on Lee powder measures is a safety device.  It makes it so the operator must lower the ram, indexing the press (unless you have removed the indexing rod) before the measure will reset.  This reduces the likelihood the user could short stroke the press and double charge.  Put a spring return on the measure and you can go back and forth in the middle of a stroke and charge multiple times.  Before you ask me "who in the hell would do that?" Ask Lee how many did before they changed the linkage.  I suppose you could ask Dillon too as they have also addressed the same problem.

Again, if that's what you prefer to do and how you want to spend your time, nothing wrong with that.

Make sure everyone watching TV with you is wearing safety glasses.

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by jmorris

[Sarge]

14 hours ago, Livin_cincy said:

I currently have a turret press and am considering a progressive.   This topic is about an alternative method of using the LLM and not the way it is set up in the directions.  There are plenty of resources on setting up the Lee Load Master according to the manual.

As I look at all colors / brands of progressive presses there are Common issues.

1. Spent primers & spent primer residue/ gunk jamming up the press.
2. Nobody claims to have primer seating problems but you read about the solutions.   So they must exist.  
3. Squibs
4. Separate stations for bullet seating and crimp.

The spent primer and residue gunk problem is easily solved by preparing the brass before you clean it.   If you deprime first you get clean primer pockets as well.  This is out of line with how a Progressive Press works.  They save you time by doing this as part of the process.  But this creates problems with the primers and residue.  You also never look in the pocket before you reload. So lets remove this from the process and use a single stage to resize & deprime before cleaning. So now we start with clean, deprimed brass.

So now we have priming.  Priming always has a certain number of issues on a progressive do to the operations in the other dies.  The primer seating correctly is very important.  I look at the various hand primers and ponder why not hand prime ?  You have clean brass so you can do this in the living room while watching TV.  You also gain that each ones seating has been checked.  So this is a win win solution.

So when you look at the press designs they do not start on station 1 with flare & add powder.  But now we can.  This opens ups stations for other operations.

So if we think outside the box we could set up a LLM to run differently.  

• The LLM is unique in that it has manual or auto index.
• Case Feeder is standard
• Price Point.

So set up your LLM with case feeder & Stations like this:

1. Install your AutoDrum Powder measure with case expansion die.  I use it on my turret without a  chain and it works fine.
2. RCBS Powder lockout die.  The primer system is removed.  It will be hard to see inside the case in this rearward position so this die solves that problem.
3. Hornady Bullet Feed die.  This is where the powder drop is normally.
4. Bullet seating die
5. Lee FCD

The benefits are

1. You do not have primer residue mess to clean up and jam up your press.  So it this is time saved in cleaning and frustration.
2. The depriming and resizing operation requires significantly more force than any other operation,  This causes that ever so slight shell plate flexing and bench flexing.
3. You have a powder check die to remove squib problems.  You can focus on the powder measure and watch it move smoothly or not to ensure consistent throws. 
4. A reliable, simple bullet feeder.  
5. Separate seating & crimping stations.  So you could use a micrometer seating die

Your thoughts ?

**** Please do not post a comment explaining how the stations on a Lee Load Master are set up according to the directions.   That was answered in the title of this discussion.  ****
 

 

 

Why don't you come to my house and I'll let you load some ammo on my 650.

I can prove to you in 15 minutes that everything you are concerned with is a non issue.

[BeerBaron]

It's an idea. I won't pooh pooh it out of hand but I will say I agree with sarge that these are mostly non-issues.

The 650 deprimes at station 1 and does a reasonable job of keeping any used primer gunk out of the rest of the works. The 550 is another beast and deprimes and reprimes at the same spot which I believe can cause some issues.

As jmorris pointed out theres a lot of time lost in this method. If the idea is just to be able to use a lee LM reliably then I guess it may work. my Lee LM ran 'pretty well' but did need the odd bit of adjustment and parts replacement. Once I had the latest primer update and had the indexing adjustment it ran well. However I know lots of people have issues with the case pusher. fortunately I never had any problem there but I can imagine given the loose tolerances on these things it could be an issue for some that might be hard to fix. 

The depriving on a single stage will take a serious amount of time as will the hand priming. if you wanted to use this method I'd at least consider priming on the LM. It has a reasonable priming system (providing you stick a sizing die in S2 and have the latest primer feed parts).

[Livin_cincy]

17 hours ago, BeerBaron said:

The depriming on a single stage will take a serious amount of time as will the hand priming. if you wanted to use this method I'd at least consider priming on the LM. It has a reasonable priming system (providing you stick a sizing die in S2 and have the latest primer feed parts).

The depriming certainly adds lever pulls to the process.  But, it is the only way to exam clean deprimed primer pockets.

I like inspecting clean brass so I am picking up each piece at that time.  So I am looking for crimped brass and damaged ones. So using a hand primer adds some but not a great deal of time.  

I suspect I like the added safety of a turret and single stage reloading.   I would just like fewer pulls per round.  

Another option would be a 550b set up with powder drop on station 1.  Set the primer then load powder and proceed.  I do like the 550's manual index.  

[jmorris]

I would just like fewer pulls per round.  

You would have to use it as the manufacturer intended it to be used.

 

[Livin_cincy]

4 hours ago, jmorris said:

 

 

You would have to use it as the manufacturer intended it to be used.

 

I would save 3 pulls per round doing it this way vs my 4 die turret press. 

• 1000 Pulls = 250 rounds on a turret
• 1000 Pulls = 995 rounds on a 5 die Progressive. 

So I would definitely gain production. 

 

[LittleLebowski]

I don't understand worrying about primer seating on handgun rounds.

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, LittleLebowski said:

I don't understand worrying about primer seating on handgun rounds.

If they are not fully seated they don't go bang when you pull the trigger.

[LittleLebowski]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

If they are not fully seated they don't go bang when you pull the trigger.

And it's not a concern with most modern progressives. 

[jmorris]

Even less so on the Loadmaster, you set the depth, in much the same way you set the depth on a 1050.  If it seats a primer, it's at the same depth as the rest.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, LittleLebowski said:

And it's not a concern with most modern progressives. 

Unless you short stroke one. Happens all the time given the number of bang bang clicks I see at matches.

[LittleLebowski]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Unless you short stroke one. Happens all the time given the number of bang bang clicks I see at matches.

I and nearly everyone else reloading here will take the chance and trust our progressives.  Do you prime before loading on your 650?

Edited January 17, 2017 by LittleLebowski

[Sarge]

32 minutes ago, LittleLebowski said:

I and nearly everyone else reloading here will take the chance and trust our progressives.  Do you prime before loading on your 650?

I actually don't  understand your question. Why in the world would I hand prime anything if I have a 650?

i don't have high primers , squibs , etc. actually never have. But I see plenty from guys who load on the same press I do or even 1050's. I actually don't think anybody in my circle of shooter friends uses anything but Dillon .

[Service Desk]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

 

I actually don't think anybody in my circle of shooter friends uses anything but Dillon .

I am of the same mind.... funny about that 

[jmorris]

And hang out in non Dillon forums, in threads about non Dillon presses.

If I couldn't get the priming system to work on a Loadmaster, it might be better to hang out in the Dillon equipment forum though.

For me any progressive that won't prime be it a Lee, Hornady, RCBS or Dillon wouldn't be one I would keep if I couldn't fix it.  That is the entire point of a progressive machine, to remove all of the individual manual processes and have them all happen concurrently.

[ScottyPotty]

When I had the LM I basically did this.  I found that the issue was case handling.  You need to tumble brass before sizing/depriming.  You have to pick up small handful of cases to feed the press, the case feed is kind of slow to load and frequenly had feed issues.  Now you got them sized and deprimed.  Then you have to handle each case again to hand prime.  Now you have to handle them again to feed the press.

After a few thousand rounds of this you think to your self there is got to be a better way.  It's too slow for a progressive machine, and not much better than the Lee turret.  

The good new is they make machines that will solve all these issues.  It's amazing how well they work.

[LittleLebowski]

On 1/16/2017 at 11:07 PM, Sarge said:

I actually don't  understand your question. Why in the world would I hand prime anything if I have a 650?

i don't have high primers , squibs , etc. actually never have. But I see plenty from guys who load on the same press I do or even 1050's. I actually don't think anybody in my circle of shooter friends uses anything but Dillon .

My point is that anyone with a decent progressive almost always says the same thing as you "Why in the world would I hand prime anything if I have a reputable, good running progressive press?"

[jmorris]

They may be one of the least desirable progressives but if you have the patience to figure out what makes them tick they can keep up with any manual press (at least until they need further adjustment).

 Might even be quicker than most, especially if you don't have a tube filler for the others.

[Livin_cincy]

I was graciously invited to see Sarge's 650 set up. 

I had never seen a 650 up close.   He has a real nice set up that can produce his annual ammo supply in short order. 

[Livin_cincy]

The magical world of YouTube has a video of a guy with the set up I described:

I prefer to deprime and then clean my brass so not deprimin during loading on the press is not an issue.
Hand priming during brass inspection is not an issue as I have already picked it up to exam it.
 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Livin_cincy

[jmorris]

Quote

I am going to show you, in my opinion, the neatest, cleanest, fastest...to a degree, way...

Couldn't make it to the end of the 11+ minute video, how many did he get loaded in that amount of time?

Edited January 22, 2017 by jmorris

[Livin_cincy]

2 hours ago, jmorris said:

Couldn't make it to the end of the 11+ minute video, how many did he get loaded in that amount of time?

He was doing a cartridge every 3 seconds.  So he was doing 1200 per hour when he started pulling the lever.

[alotur]

I wasn't there but the primer chute on the Lee is hell.

[Livin_cincy]

10 hours ago, alotur said:

I wasn't there but the primer chute on the Lee is hell.

I like the prime on the forward stroke design. Being a separate motion from the dies. You can verify it by feel.  It is worth the two manipulations of the lever arm per round to me (Fwd and then down).

The Dillon 650 gives a very positive feel when priming to the operator.  I liked that a great deal.