MikeBurgess Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Nik Habicht said: Could also be creative with stage design -- nothing says that you couldn't have some kind of port that could be opened in a Hard Lean wall -- and restrict the use of said port to PCC division only, to allow them to shoot the "one handed pistol leaning" targets.... I think the point most PCC shooters I have seen on here and at the range have is to NOT change the course of fire, if there is a hard lean that most pistol shooters will shoot one handed, the PCC shooters want that same challenge, I cant think of anything I have been asked to do with a pistol in a match that can not be done safely with a carbine. we are not shooting 300 win mags, they are still minor pf guns that are reasonably easy to shoot one handed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 On 1/15/2017 at 9:40 AM, Brooke said: Some competitors shooting PCC has no effect on those who are sticking to pistols. Until stages are designed for PCC first, handguns second, including modified start position, 1/2 size targets replacing distance targets, etc. Then it has a trickle-down effect. I say this as a PCC and handgun competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Scott Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 9 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: I think the point most PCC shooters I have seen on here and at the range have is to NOT change the course of fire, if there is a hard lean that most pistol shooters will shoot one handed, the PCC shooters want that same challenge, I cant think of anything I have been asked to do with a pistol in a match that can not be done safely with a carbine. we are not shooting 300 win mags, they are still minor pf guns that are reasonably easy to shoot one handed. This^ Please dont change the stages, if something is a huge pain in the ass for a rifle shooter to do, that shooter needs to suck it up or do something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) As a PCC shooter, I agree. I ask for no special accommodations in stage design. Edited January 19, 2017 by OPENB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 7:28 AM, MikeBurgess said: I think the point most PCC shooters I have seen on here and at the range have is to NOT change the course of fire, if there is a hard lean that most pistol shooters will shoot one handed, the PCC shooters want that same challenge, I cant think of anything I have been asked to do with a pistol in a match that can not be done safely with a carbine. we are not shooting 300 win mags, they are still minor pf guns that are reasonably easy to shoot one handed. I agree considering most pistol caliber carbines are also sold as PISTOLS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said: I agree considering most pistol caliber carbines are also sold as PISTOLS! Uh, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Ming the Merciless said: I agree considering most pistol caliber carbines are also sold as PISTOLS! Where is this? Does ATF know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 As someone new to the sport I'd say PCC is a good thing in that I think it will bring more shooters to the sport. The only impact of having PCC shooters in my squads is the fact that it takes longer to "make ready" and also clear the firearm at the end of a stage. Now, what I'd like the MDs to do is to require people to pick PCC or a pistol to shoot the match with and not both. Otherwise, people are fiddling with their gear while switching platforms instead of resetting stages and slowing the squad even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, tanks said: As someone new to the sport I'd say PCC is a good thing in that I think it will bring more shooters to the sport. The only impact of having PCC shooters in my squads is the fact that it takes longer to "make ready" and also clear the firearm at the end of a stage. Now, what I'd like the MDs to do is to require people to pick PCC or a pistol to shoot the match with and not both. Otherwise, people are fiddling with their gear while switching platforms instead of resetting stages and slowing the squad even more. I've not seen PCC take any stage longer to make ready or clear. Make ready is the same as a pistol (pull it out, load it, put it in ready position). Clear is easier - hammer down, bolt open followed by inserting a chamber flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 38 minutes ago, tanks said: As someone new to the sport I'd say PCC is a good thing in that I think it will bring more shooters to the sport. The only impact of having PCC shooters in my squads is the fact that it takes longer to "make ready" and also clear the firearm at the end of a stage. Now, what I'd like the MDs to do is to require people to pick PCC or a pistol to shoot the match with and not both. Otherwise, people are fiddling with their gear while switching platforms instead of resetting stages and slowing the squad even more. Your MD allows competitiors to shoot 2 different divisions in the same match? Sounds like a competitive advantage issue to me ... Be nice to shoot the stage once for practice with one firearm and then 5 mins later with another gun .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanks Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 44 minutes ago, mreed911 said: I've not seen PCC take any stage longer to make ready or clear. Make ready is the same as a pistol (pull it out, load it, put it in ready position). Clear is easier - hammer down, bolt open followed by inserting a chamber flag. Fiddling with the chamber flag adds more time from what I have seen. Maybe as people get more proficient on the platform it will not take as long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Nimitz said: Your MD allows competitiors to shoot 2 different divisions in the same match? Sounds like a competitive advantage issue to me ... Be nice to shoot the stage once for practice with one firearm and then 5 mins later with another gun .... Not uncommon at all. Second gun shoots for no score (any classifiers will count, though). Good way to get practice in. I've done it PCC/Production and considered it SSTK/L10. Generally, in these cases, your "for score" shoot must be the first run through any stage. Great way to up the $$$ at a match that's not full ($25 match fee, $10 second gun fee, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 If they run it the way you describe then I agree, no issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 19 hours ago, mreed911 said: Uh, what? 19 hours ago, teros135 said: Where is this? Does ATF know? Thanks for the nitpicking! LOL! Most of the PC Carbines also are the basis for an ugly pistol based on the same receiver, and upper with a pistol length barrel and no buttstock. They are shot one handed, not shouldered, so there is no reason a PC Carbine can't be fired one handed around a barricade same as a pistol version. I've shot my MPX Carbine around a barricade one handed. It's not an issue. I'm pretty sure everyone here has seen the video of the Bearded One shooting his PCC around a barricade one handed. So thanks again for your nitpicking. Now you can pick on my grammar and punctuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, Ming the Merciless said: Thanks for the nitpicking! LOL! Most of the PC Carbines also are the basis for an ugly pistol based on the same receiver, and upper with a pistol length barrel and no buttstock. They are shot one handed, not shouldered, so there is no reason a PC Carbine can't be fired one handed around a barricade same as a pistol version. I've shot my MPX Carbine around a barricade one handed. It's not an issue. I'm pretty sure everyone here has seen the video of the Bearded One shooting his PCC around a barricade one handed. So thanks again for your nitpicking. Now you can pick on my grammar and punctuation. I'm not sure we're thinking about the same things when we say PCC. The last C in PCC is Carbine, meaning it's on a rifle stock, and meant to be fired shouldered (not that it can't be unshouldered, but it's a rifle). The majority of pistol caliber carbines I see fall into three camps: AR-rifle variants (pistol-caliber AR's), MechTech-style pistol conversions and differentiated carbines (think Beretta CX4, Kel-Tec Sub2000, etc.). They're certainly not "the basis for an ugly pistol based on the same receiver." That's what several of us caught on to, not some "nitpick." The majority of times in the majority of cases a PCC will be set up such that it's fired from the shoulder using a sight of some kind... not held as a handgun (not that it won't happen - this thread is simply talking about the difference in body and match mechanics for PCC shooters and how few, if any, want to see "PCC-style" matches). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, mreed911 said: I'm not sure we're thinking about the same things when we say PCC. The last C in PCC is Carbine, meaning it's on a rifle stock, and meant to be fired shouldered (not that it can't be unshouldered, but it's a rifle). The majority of pistol caliber carbines I see fall into three camps: AR-rifle variants (pistol-caliber AR's), MechTech-style pistol conversions and differentiated carbines (think Beretta CX4, Kel-Tec Sub2000, etc.). They're certainly not "the basis for an ugly pistol based on the same receiver." That's what several of us caught on to, not some "nitpick." The majority of times in the majority of cases a PCC will be set up such that it's fired from the shoulder using a sight of some kind... not held as a handgun (not that it won't happen - this thread is simply talking about the difference in body and match mechanics for PCC shooters and how few, if any, want to see "PCC-style" matches). the point is you CAN shoot one of the darn things one handed without the but stock resting on your shoulder. Much like I always shoot a hand gun with two hands unless the WSB or course design force me to use only one hand. Edited January 20, 2017 by MikeBurgess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Remember that WHO/SHO for PCC is still two-handed. Not saying you can't make one-handed shots (and some courses may be designed to require it, indirectly), just that it's not the typical use, especially if distance from a barrier requiring such acrobatics is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhett45acp Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 Free Thinking here a bit. (not an outburst for those concerned). Speaking of rules. Why not let PCC be incorporated into Open? Second. Change CO to Production Optics 15. As with PCC, I have been openly luck warm on CO. But as my eyes age CO is appealing, but thr pesky 10 round mag limit stinks with such a cool striker fired gun. If I could switch from Limited to Production Optics with the butt load of high-cap mags laying around. Oh what fun. Maybe?? This comes from a dude that spent most of 2015/16 shooting SS. To keep on track with opening post.... Are there any other PCC/rules contradictions as Sarge found above? Spend some quality time with the rule book starting from Page One and see what you see. I find Page 3 (pdf) very interesting. #3 especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 2 hours ago, rhett45acp said: Free Thinking here a bit. (not an outburst for those concerned). Speaking of rules. Why not let PCC be incorporated into Open? Second. Change CO to Production Optics 15. As with PCC, I have been openly luck warm on CO. But as my eyes age CO is appealing, but thr pesky 10 round mag limit stinks with such a cool striker fired gun. If I could switch from Limited to Production Optics with the butt load of high-cap mags laying around. Oh what fun. Maybe?? This comes from a dude that spent most of 2015/16 shooting SS. To keep on track with opening post.... Are there any other PCC/rules contradictions as Sarge found above? Spend some quality time with the rule book starting from Page One and see what you see. I find Page 3 (pdf) very interesting. #3 especially. PCC scores were based on Open scores to start. CO was matched to Production, in part, to not have another "only in some states" division. 10 rounds keeps things equal, nationally. You can use your full-capacity mags for CO - you just load them to 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Our PCC guys have an easier time with some of the wall leans, since they can jam the rifle out at arm's length around the corner Rambo style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Caveat... I shoot PCC and like it even though I thought I wouldn't. With that in mind.... Courses made easier for PCC? Not in my experience nor do I ever want to see it. I have shot many a match and know the MDs and not once was there an issue of "no hard leans because of the PCC guys". I have had hard weakhand leans where I could barely engage the target off my weak shoulder. So what? It can be and was done safely albeit slower than if I was shooting in any other division. This brings me to my second point. Since nobody shooting PCC that I know of is asking to change COFs and this is its own (provisional) division competing only with others within that division I don't get the angst. Don't like PCC? Think it's stupid to shoot a carbine on a pistol course? That is cool. Just don't do it. Feel free to denigrate it like most who think the only real division is the one they shoot but just don't take PCC out behind the barn and put a bullet in it. :-) Certainly clunky rules need to be refined. If it were my call I would not have classified anyone until there was enough data to set the division's own HHFs and would not apply the "only one class lower in any other division" language. But that is just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 My disdain is more based on the completely different rules with respect to gun handling outside the course of fire. I personally don't like it and I think it's just out of place. The HHF thing is just simply pathetic and mocks the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 hours ago, theWacoKid said: The HHF thing is just simply pathetic and mocks the system. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theWacoKid Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 hour ago, mreed911 said: How so? I think handing GM to what really amounts to A class runs on certain classifiers waters down the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, theWacoKid said: I think handing GM to what really amounts to A class runs on certain classifiers waters down the system. Which classifiers, specifically, are you seeing this on? And doesn't it hurt the shooter in that once they're a PCC GM, their other classifications get bumped to the one-lower Master, so now they're hopelessly outclassed in their other divisions? Note: My PCC scores are better than my handgun scores but not to the point I'm making GM (or M) in PCC. Edited January 25, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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