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223 wylde bump same as 5.56 bbl


ffgats

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I just rebarelled my AR to a 223 Wylde ( Rainier Ultra Match) and my 3k prep brass from my previous 5.56 bbl some wont extract ( dummy rounds). The prep brass shoulder measured 1.445" using Sinclair shoulder bump gauge, this brass feed and extract 100% from my old Noveske 5.56". So adjusted my sizing die so the shoulder now  measures 1.425" . Is this number looks to low?  All along I thought 223, 223 Wylde and 5.56 has the same OD of their brass. Share your opinions please , thanks

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OAL 2.225 "for a 55gr. Its not slipping from the extractor, its more of a resistance, a symtom of a long shoulder, correction my original brass before was 1.447" not 1.445 as posted, a typo. I have to resize again  all my prep brass now to 1.442".

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Chambers do wear, and there are tolerances involved when barrels are chambered. The Ultra Match may be cut to the minimum headspace dimension, and the Noveske on the longer side.

What I did years ago, is set my sizing die using a "Go" headspace gage, -.002". It is actually longer than factory ammo, and fits all of the different barrels that I have.

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Chambers do wear, and there are tolerances involved when barrels are chambered. The Ultra Match may be cut to the minimum headspace dimension, and the Noveske on the longer side.

What I did years ago, is set my sizing die using a "Go" headspace gage, -.002". It is actually longer than factory ammo, and fits all of the different barrels that I have.


I had never thought of using a go gauge to set my sizing die up.
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Chambers do wear, and there are tolerances involved when barrels are chambered. The Ultra Match may be cut to the minimum headspace dimension, and the Noveske on the longer side.

What I did years ago, is set my sizing die using a "Go" headspace gage, -.002". It is actually longer than factory ammo, and fits all of the different barrels that I have.


I had never thought of using a go gauge to set my sizing die up.
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I have a factory loaded ammo Hornady 75 gr match and was just curious about its shoulder lenght, to my surprise its 1.448 which was  pretty identical to my prep brass which now doesnt extract to my new bbl. Starting to suspect that i screwed up the way I trim the brass, I remember somebody borrowed my Giraud Trimmer 2 yrs ago and maybe readjusted my setting.  Could be this possible that what causes it is over lenght of the brass. 

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21 hours ago, ffgats said:

I just rebarelled my AR to a 223 Wylde ( Rainier Ultra Match) and my 3k prep brass from my previous 5.56 bbl some wont extract ( dummy rounds). The prep brass shoulder measured 1.445" using Sinclair shoulder bump gauge, this brass feed and extract 100% from my old Noveske 5.56". So adjusted my sizing die so the shoulder now  measures 1.425" . Is this number looks to low?  All along I thought 223, 223 Wylde and 5.56 has the same OD of their brass. Share your opinions please , thanks

This is simple, your cases were fire formed in another chamber and you have a brass spring back issue.

I buy a lot of bulk once fired 5.56 cases and the first time these cases are sized they are run though a RCBS AR Series .223/5.56 small base die. When sizing these cases I pause at the top of the ram stroke for 4 seconds. The pausing reduces brass spring back and the die reduces case diameter to minimum SAAMI standards.

Now fire a factory loaded cartridge and then measure the case body at three points and write this down. A full length resized case for a semi-auto should be .003 to .005 smaller in case body diameter than a fired case. This allows the case to spring back from its fired diameter and extract without problems, shoulder bump for a semi-auto is .003 to .006.

 

Bottom line, you have "fat" fired brass from another chamber and it needs to be put on a diet and slimmed down by running it through a small base die at least once. And then try a standard die thereafter and see how it works and functions properly. Right now your cases are blivets and need to loose 5 pounds.

Edited by bigedp51
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What I have right now iis the Dillon Sizing die, not sure if this is a SB die. But what puzzles me is the Hornady 75gr. Factory round ( ogive lenght is 2.250")with a shoulder lenght of 1.448 chambers and extract with no problem manually and not by firing. Some of my old prep brass has the same shoulder lenght as the Hornady. I will be checking the OAL, it could be my new bbl has a shorter freebore or tighter . Will also try resizing some brass to 1.448" and cycle wothout a projectile and see what will happen. If it does chamber and extract, then will focus on my bullet seating . 

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The Dillon .223 dies are small base dies. Do you have the press set up so it cams over at the end of the stroke? It sounds like the shoulder isn't bumped back far enough which would cause you to have to mortar intact rounds out of the chamber to clear the rifle.  

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ffgats

Below is a JP Enterprise .223/5.56 case gauge for a Wylde chamber

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Below a .223 Wilson, Dillon and JP Enterprise case gauges and the purpose of the photo is to show the JP Enterprise gauge checks the body diameter. If your cases and loaded ammo fit in the JP Enterprise case gauge they will fit in your new chamber. So again this gauge checks headspace, OAL and "case diameter" and the other gauges do not check case diameter. I use a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to adjust shoulder bump and all my loaded ammo gets a final plop test in the JP Enterprise gauge. This gauge is made from a Wylde finish chamber reamer and I highly recommend this gauge for checking loaded ammo.

img%5D

Edited by bigedp51
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1.445 to 1.425 indicates that you have sized the shoulder another .02.  You want to size your brass so that the shoulder moves .002, not .02.  Your brass has been FIRED in another chamber.  Fire forming is when you fire a case of one variety to form a new caliber case like when you make 6xc brass from .22-250 brass etc.  or your making XXX brass into XXXAI brass; this is important as you cant use XXXAI data when the shoulder has not been moved forward as there is not enough room in the case. 

reference the measurement from base to shoulder in .223 vs. 223 wylde vs 5.56, depending on the chamber reamer used all vary.  Even if you have a XXX reamer, depending on who did the barrel, the bolt to shoulder dimension varies.  usually the 5.56 length is a little more generous however this dimension really has little effect on pressure; your throat has significant effect. 

It is common when using range pickup brass to need to size the brass a little more then think necessary to account for those few sticks fired in a generous chamber to account for spring back.  You also need to make sure you well lube your cases.  if you don't get enough lube on the cases and in the necks, then you can pull the shoulder forward when you pull the expander button through the cases.

To set up your dies measure a few fired cases and -.002 or .003 and that's where the shoulder needs to be when full length sized, this is just setting up the FL die correctly, its not bumping the shoulder.  When you bump the shoulder your only moving the shoulder back and not sizing the sides of the case.  Size and measure 10 cased when you think its right and try them in your rifle and measure them to see if there are a few "big ones" in there. 

Your press might or might not need to cam over. Practically speaking for someone with a battery or AR's, set up your dies for your smallest chamber.  If your running a bolt gun or a serious precision gun, have a die for each rifle.  Almost forgot, sometimes the head stamps effect where the dies need to be set up based on the spring back of the different kinds of brass. 

Not to go on too much of a tangent, but annealing, which you don't need to do will uniform the brass and provide more consistent measurements.   

 

 

 

 

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Sorry, that was a typo it is  1.4450- 1.4425, Like bigedp51 mentioned earlier, it could be the "spring back",  not all my 3k prep brass done 2-3 yrs ago  has change its  shoulder lenght , already done resizing again and retrimmed my brass.

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  • 4 weeks later...
19 hours ago, Edmooberry said:

Did you resolve your issue?  I'm having the same problem right now.  I've got a new AR with a wylde chamber and it is SO picky!  My 5.56 chamber will eat everything I throw at it. 

I did resized again all my prep brass, using Sinclair Shoulder bump gauge

1.444-1.446 will chamber and extract without problem, 1.447 will chamber alright but a little hesitation when extracting. 1.448 will still chamber but has to mortar to extract the round. All of these chamber and extracting are done manually. I measured some factory rounds - Federal fusion, Winchester and some Hornady's, all the 3 brands register a shoulder of 1.444- 1.445. Hope this helps.

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4 hours ago, ffgats said:

I did resized again all my prep brass, using Sinclair Shoulder bump gauge

1.444-1.446 will chamber and extract without problem, 1.447 will chamber alright but a little hesitation when extracting. 1.448 will still chamber but has to mortar to extract the round. All of these chamber and extracting are done manually. I measured some factory rounds - Federal fusion, Winchester and some Hornady's, all the 3 brands register a shoulder of 1.444- 1.445. Hope this helps.

 

That does help a ton1  Thanks for posting.  I will get a bump gauge on order and start reworking my brass.

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I bought a JP case gauge, unfortunately it will not do good for me, even the dummy round with a shoulder of 1.448 will still fit , this lenght will chamber but needs to be mortared to extract. If not not mistaken the 223 Rem lenght from base to shoulder is 1.438" so 1.442 would still be good to go. 

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I have a JP case gauge as well and the only rounds that will chamber in my WYLDE will slide all the way in and drop right out with zero assistance....Apparently my quality control is not up to snuff as a very VERY small percentage of my rounds will achieve this. 

 

I am ordering a Sinclair shoulder bump gauge right now.

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