IronArcher

How much is exactly zero movement?

37 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

That's pretty much where I heard the whole "you need to move the trigger STRAIGHT back without moving the sights at all"

Yeah I said this for many years as well. Ultimately I decided it didn't matter how I pulled the trigger as long as the sights stay where I want them to be. So I started training to pull the trigger as quickly as possible without letting the mistakes in trigger control make the gun move. As I said earlier, I think this skill is a key aspect to a well developed grip.

4 minutes ago, IronArcher said:

Ben says it doesn't matter how you hold the gun (even shooting one upside down) as long as you don't move the sights when pulling the trigger.

I agree with this too except I don't care about a little bit of sight movement as long as the sights remain within the desired target area.

I don't really see much of a disagreement in concept, just a different approach.

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This is a timely thread as it's what I'm also trying to get under control.

Jake, question on your drill of hitting an 8" plate at 20 yds... how many shots and in what time?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, johnbu said:

Jake, question on your drill of hitting an 8" plate at 20 yds... how many shots and in what time?  

It's not really a drill so much as a benchmark. The purpose of the exercise is to test how well you can hold the gun still while pulling the trigger "wrong". It isn't a gimme target so you won't succeed with a lot of gun movement. When I first did this I was surprised at how aggressively I could pull the trigger and still reliably hit the plate. To me, passing this exercise means shooting at a comfortable pace and not missing at all. Wouldn't be bad to play around with this at different distances as well, but I like 20 yards being the primary standard.

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The goal (of shooting well) is to know that the bullet is going to hit the target before it gets to the target.

Depending on the target's difficulty level, I'd choose one of two visual techniques to accomplish that.

For close targets that didn't require sight alignment / confirmation - the goal was to KNOW that the gun was pointed at the target until it fired. 

For most targets - where seeing prefect sight alignment was not any slower than not seeing anything at all - the goal was to KNOW that the sights were aligned on the target until the gun fired.

For either of those two visual techniques, I never cared - or wasted any attention - on what was happening with the trigger. 

For both of those visual techniques, "how I made the gun fire" was the same.... Called it "looking the shot off," which was accomplished with a visual-feeling. Visually (the visual part) and powerfully (the feeling part) holding the gun or the sights pointed at the target until the gun fired - was I all I cared about (put all my attention).

 

Try this sometime... Set up a difficult target (like an 8" plate at 20 / 25 yards). Don't even draw... Align the sights on the target and look powerfully at the front sight - like you've never looked at it before - until the gun fires. (At no time did you ever give any attention to the trigger.)

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On 1/9/2017 at 9:42 PM, IronArcher said:

They harp pretty hard on trigger control fundamentals.
That's pretty much where I heard the whole "you need to move the trigger STRAIGHT back without moving the sights at all".
Ben says it doesn't matter how you hold the gun (even shooting one upside down) as long as you don't move the sights when pulling the trigger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I think Jake is saying the exact same thing -- using different words.  To put it differently -- the content of the message is the same.....

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Following up on what Brian and Jake are both saying -- I learned more about hitting the target on demand while competing in a half dozen Bianchi matches, than in years of (badly designed, my fault entirely) weekly practice.

Bianchi is Virginia Count.  The time limits seem generous by USPSA standards until you realize that you're aiming for an 8 inch 10 rung, and also for a four inch X-ring inside that.

Shooting paper was good, but the mover and especially the falling plate event were the places I learned the most.  If you can set up a plate rack, and shoot it repeatedly, especiailly at 20 and 25 yards, you'll learn a lot about what you need to see, how to hold the gun so the sights stay on the plate, how to transition quickly and smoothly to the next plate, to do it all over.

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On 01/11/2017 at 11:33 AM, Jake Di Vita said:

It's not really a drill so much as a benchmark. The purpose of the exercise is to test how well you can hold the gun still while pulling the trigger "wrong". It isn't a gimme target so you won't succeed with a lot of gun movement. When I first did this I was surprised at how aggressively I could pull the trigger and still reliably hit the plate. To me, passing this exercise means shooting at a comfortable pace and not missing at all. Wouldn't be bad to play around with this at different distances as well, but I like 20 yards being the primary standard.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

 

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On January 13, 2017 at 9:11 PM, johnbu said:

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

 

So then what do you think about spending an additional $200 or so in parts to improve a trigger (been wrestling with this for my current Stock 2).  Practice with the hardware as is until effective with the plate drill above, or make the investment and then go after the drill?  The investment would shorten reset, lower DA pull and travel, and marginally improve SA pull.  Currently has only reduced hammer spring, aftermarket guide rod, and polishing.  All else is factory original.

Edited by Jetskidawg

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A fancy $200 trigger isn't going to fix your problems. Go ahead and get the trigger work done if you want, but hard work is the only thing I've found that actually makes you any better at this stuff. Delaying the hard work until you get a new trigger is not a wise decision to me.

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On 1/18/2017 at 9:50 PM, Jake Di Vita said:

Go ahead and get the trigger work done if you want, but hard work is the only thing I've found that actually makes you any better at this stuff.

No one expects to become good at playing the trumpet by buying the same one that all the pro's play and slicking up the valves with a super short throw and lightened, polished parts.

Being able to play an instrument means doing your scales and putting the time in. You have to practice in order to play with subconscious skill.

I just spent $1500 to switch from an M&P to a Tanfoglio. Buying the "instant production GM" gun... actually meant I needed 3 months to get back to where I was before switching. I'd have made A class much sooner if I stuck with an M&P.

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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