Tested!! Hammer springs & PF Firing Pin Pencil Test

[oddjob]

Anyone have any idea at what point (inches?) the primers (W-W) will NOT go off?

[MemphisMechanic]

Just got back from the range. Still running that old batch of marginally-seated CCI primers (all flush or below, but "flush" isn't good enough for CZ/Tanfo guns with light hammer springs)...

19ish inches with 14 pound PD spring and OD heavy firing pin still wasn't 100%. One round went click in the first 75.

I switched to the EGD Medium spring and my DA/SA Pulls went up 0.9/0.4 lbs respectively... but it truly eats anything with that 7-pound trigger.

Fed if my oldest, crappiest CCI ammo loaded with Precision Delta FMJs and WST, and it ate 200 rounds of it like candy. Even rounds which definitely weren't below flush by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited January 6, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[emjei]

So EGD Medium is the answer ??

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[IronArcher]

Perhaps for him.


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[MemphisMechanic]

...and for @emjei too it seems. He's running CCI primed Freedom and other bulk factory stuff and a Wolff 13 and PD 14 weren't 100% for his gun either.

If you don't mind a 7 pound DA (with polishing!) and need the gun to eat anything, right now the EGD Medium is the best option I have found.

If you do more QC to your ammo or change primers or both? Then 4 or 5 pound triggers with Wolff or Patriot springs are achievable.

[B_RAD]

MM,

just put those bad boys back on the 650 and seat the primers a little deeper!

Then you can go with a lighter DA!

[MemphisMechanic]

That's exactly the plan. Buried primers and a PD 13,14, etc are my long term goal.

I wanted to see what it would take to make the gun run on my stockpile of crappy ammo first, though!

Now I know how to configure a Tanfo if it starts acting up in the middle of a major match and it MUST work 110% perfectly on the next stage without any test-firing... or how to spring a carry gun if you still want a pretty damn good trigger.

I learned. Now I dial backward if and when the ammo situation improves.

Edited January 6, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[IronArcher]

A wolf #14, super light firing pin, and no polish was still 100% with CCI, Aguila, Perfecta, Hornady, and Barnes ammo.
I can see no reason that with the addition of a PDO pin, pin spring, and #13 PDO hammer spring, and full polish job I can't get back there.


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[v1911]

It's amazing the story each tanfo has.

After reading on the Lim Pro for the past few months. There hasn't been 2 models that exhibited the same characteristics. Each one has its own unique challenges in an attempt to reach a desired trigger pull. And even then, the end results vary as do the reliability with ignition even when using identical parts. 

[Bapple]

What I don't quite understand is how such vast differences there can be between 2 different guns of the same model?  Are these Tanfo's not CNC'ed on the exact same machines?  If so, how in the world can the tolerances and such be so different?  Anyone have any insight on this?

[PatriotDefense]

2 minutes ago, Bapple said:

What I don't quite understand is how such vast differences there can be between 2 different guns of the same model?  Are these Tanfo's not CNC'ed on the exact same machines?  If so, how in the world can the tolerances and such be so different?  Anyone have any insight on this?

Its highly likely that Tanfoglio has multiple CNC machines as well as operators. Tooling wears down over time as well as fixtures and jigs causing tolerances to increase in critical areas. The majority of parts used in the gun seem to be cast parts which are known to not be outstanding for keeping tight tolerances. On top of that there seems to be design changes that take place on the frames every so often from the factory and we have no idea when or why this occurs. 

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, Bapple said:

What I don't quite understand is how such vast differences there can be between 2 different guns of the same model?  Are these Tanfo's not CNC'ed on the exact same machines?  If so, how in the world can the tolerances and such be so different?  Anyone have any insight on this?

The biggest difference between IronArcher's ability to pop CCIs and mine likely isn't gun related at all. The lighter your springs get, the more crucial properly-seated primers become.

Since my stockpile of Glock/M&P ammo doesn't have completely buried primers and they're really hard ones, I need to run more hammer spring than @IronArcher does.

[9146gt]

Fix the problem not the symptom...seat all primers .004">.010" below flush. 95% of lite strikes will go away.

 

Tom

[MemphisMechanic]

41 minutes ago, 9146gt said:

Fix the problem not the symptom...seat all primers .004">.010" below flush. 95% of lite strikes will go away.

 

Tom

My gun eats ammo yours won't, and runs without immaculate quality controlled ammo. With a very shootable 7 pound trigger.

I don't see that as a "problem"

Edited January 6, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[9146gt]

Wrong ...use an RCBS or other hand priming tool to seat primers flush. Did this for years with my revolvers before the 1050.

 

Tom

[MemphisMechanic]

10 minutes ago, 9146gt said:

Wrong ...use an RCBS or other hand priming tool to seat primers flush. Did this for years with my revolvers before the 1050.

 

Tom

Giving up the ability to rapidly bang out 800 rounds an hour just to have a lighter trigger...

That seems just as insane to me as 7 pounds of DA seems to you.

Edited January 6, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[9146gt]

The real point is in this game like my real job working on race cars, the issue is cure the sympton do not fix the problem. Which many times leads to other problems.

 

Best line I have heard is how is your day going..." shooting alligators instead of draining the swamp" That makes me smile.

 

Tom

 

[MemphisMechanic]

6 minutes ago, 9146gt said:

The real point is in this game like my real job working on race cars, the issue is cure the sympton do not fix the problem.

Whereas I see sitting at a bench hand-priming as time spent tinkering in the pits, instead of out on the track learning to be a better driver.

As I've mentioned before, I've handled the guns of three national champs in Production, and they all had average to downright horrible triggers.

My gun runs 100% now. If I manage to trick the 650 into drilling primers deeper then yes, I'll drop spring weight. In the meantime, I have a stockpile of 2,000 rounds of this old ammo that I'm going to go practice with and get better.  

Edited January 6, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[9146gt]

When it does not function as expected you are in the pits behing the wall going many laps down.

 

Tom

[IronArcher]

I suspect the level of polishing makes a difference as well as age of springs, choice of lubricants, internal wear, choice of ammo, and how clean the gun is when running a test.
Note: mine still has the Stock heart shaped hammer.
The Xtreme hammer may be the next step for me.

I know it was posted elsewhere, but what does the Xtreme hammer do to DA and SA pull?
Only reasons I haven't gone to the Xtreme yet is that it would likely require a new BOLO as well and I still need to test the PDO pin with my ammo.


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[IronArcher]

I'll also add, it depends on how light of a trigger one wants. I've seen some incredibly light trigger pulls here. Some far lighter than I want/need (not sure how well I would work with a > 1 pounds trigger).
Also, I only run factory ammo. Primer depth probably isn't an issue for me. I suspect, I would need to go back to a #14 to run MMs ammo reliably.... maybe more.
Now that I think about it, add barrel chamber size to the above list of variables.

For me, the light DA pull helps as I haven't yet developed a very good DA pull. Now that I have done all this work, the DA on my gun is so much smoother and lighter, my pull looks much better. I honestly believe this will help me develop a great DA pull.


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[mjmagee67]

I have never understood the significance of the pencil test.

I have a box stock Sig P226 that won't get a pencil to clear the barrel, BUT will set everything under the sun off. While my CZ will shoot the same pencil 7 or so inches out of the barrel and it only 80% with CCI. My other CZ will barely clear the barrel with the pencil and is 100% with Fed & Win and 80% with CCI. Both CZ's have 8.5 lbs springs.

Someone take the new firing pin put it in a gun with a 10 lbs PD spring and tell me how it does with CCI primers. My 2 Stock II's have been 100% with Fed & Win primers using a Extreme firing pin and 10 lbs PD springs.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, mjmagee67 said:

I have a box stock Sig P226 that won't get a pencil to clear the barrel, BUT will set everything under the sun off.

7 inches out of the barrel and only 80% with CCI.

My other CZ will barely clear the barrel with the pencil and is 100% with Fed & Win and 80% with CCI. Both CZ's have 8.5 lbs springs.

Damn. Maybe I'll stop with the pencil tests.

 

[johnbu]

Extra "whack power" can cover or make up for, problems in other areas.  things like short chambers, dragging firing pin block, rough firing pin channel are common, I call them "force robbers".  Ammo too wide, primer too shallow, etc are also force robbers.   ID them all, fix what you can.  Add spring force to mask what you can't.

The pencil test is dependent on the geometry of the gun striker guns don't allow the FP to go forward much and they don't show much. But, the tanfo guns DO allow enough motion so greater smack force correlates to higher launch height. It ain't perfect, but it is cheap and shows some information indicative of ignition probability.  some fancy electronics to measure the actual impact or a metal indentation test and optical measurement of the depth would be better...but those things are above my pay grade and wallet depth!

 

 

 

 

[Stician]

On 1/6/2017 at 7:19 AM, PatriotDefense said:

Its highly likely that Tanfoglio has multiple CNC machines as well as operators. Tooling wears down over time as well as fixtures and jigs causing tolerances to increase in critical areas. The majority of parts used in the gun seem to be cast parts which are known to not be outstanding for keeping tight tolerances. On top of that there seems to be design changes that take place on the frames every so often from the factory and we have no idea when or why this occurs. 

I've noticed plenty of this.  I have two large frame Stock II's.  One new school with a flatter beavertail and more pronounced backstrap hump.  The trade-offs I've noticed after installing EGG light and now PD14 along with Xtreme trigger, Titan hammer, Xtreme sear are the following.  The newer gun has tighter slide to frame fit, smoother DA pull with less pronounced stacking.  But the inside of the mag well area is tighter than the older gun.  I tuned them with identical parts yet the older gun sends a pencil 2" higher in DA and almost 3" higher in SA.  I've never had any issues setting off CCI, X-Treme, S&B and Federal and my pull weights are little under 7 and 3 lbs.  EGD light would need to be swapped out every 3000 rounds but so far PD14 is holding up.  Also I've tried EGD medium using stock firing pin in a Limited Pro.  Pops everything.  I think the market could use a PD15!  The feel of your springs are superior.