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Jeff O

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On 1/6/2017 at 4:09 PM, IronArcher said:

 


So make it more dangerous so people are more careful, and that will be safer?

Put finger between hammer and pin. Pull trigger, when you feel the hammer move, take booger picker off of bang switch, finish rolling your finger out as you normally would.

Also many (most... especially competition guns) won't set off the primer from 1/2 cock.


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I Didn't say I couldn't do it, my argument is that it is not safer. you are basing your argument on your personal behavior, and level of skill, my argument is that most people do not posses your level of skill and are as a whole safer and better served by the rules requiring them to go to fully hammer down. 

 

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1 hour ago, IronArcher said:

If they don't posses my skill level, why ask them to keep the trigger back virtually until the hammer is on the pin?


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Yes because for a portion of the general public being given a 3 step operation to follow (hold hammer back, pull trigger, lower hammer) has less chance of error than one with more steps (hold hammer back, pull trigger, lower hammer some but not too much, release trigger, lower hammer more) 

 

but this is all getting away from the main point of the rule, that is half cock is on several firearms not as safe as fully decocked. regardless of whatever increase or decrease in the likelihood of a AD during the decocking process itself, where we will remember the gun is by rule not pointed at any body parts, it is this decocked gun that is very likely going to be pointed at someones leg or foot. you mentioned that your gun has been modified so you can apply the safety at half cock, why? 

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My gun has NOT been modified to put the safety on at 1/2 cock... it came that way from the factory.

As far as too many steps making it dangerous:

Full drop,
1) insert finger/thumb between hammer and slide
2) pull trigger
3) hold trigger
4) carefully slide/rotate thumb finger out
5) release trigger
5a) For additional safety release trigger somewhere between where you think 1/2 cock is, and fully down.

1/2 cock,
1) insert finger/thumb between hammer and slide
2) pull trigger
3) release trigger
4) roll/slide finger/thumb out


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the term "going off half cocked" historically means you are doing something stupid and unprepared for. seems appropriate.



I always saw it as implying that you will do a crap job going at it 1/2 cocked than fully cocked.
The job being referenced to is setting off the primer.
Going off half cocked doesn't usually result in the primer going off.


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My gun has NOT been modified to put the safety on at 1/2 cock... it came that way from the factory.

As far as too many steps making it dangerous:

Full drop,
1) insert finger/thumb between hammer and slide
2) pull trigger
3) hold trigger
4) carefully slide/rotate thumb finger out
5) release trigger
5a) For additional safety release trigger somewhere between where you think 1/2 cock is, and fully down.

1/2 cock,
1) insert finger/thumb between hammer and slide
2) pull trigger
3) release trigger
4) roll/slide finger/thumb out


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Tortured steps
funny that you added several to fully decocked that are also part of half cocked that did not get in that list.

I get it you will never be convinced regardless that several governing bodies and firearms manufacturers recommend doing something different than what you believe


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Several?
Which?
Which parts need to be in 1/3 cock that aren't?

I need to see where 1/2 cock is more dangerous. I would allow either method if I was writing the rule book..... that gives me an idea! [emoji362]


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Much to do about nothing. This entire thread is half cocked if not half crocked. So far I've never had a problem fully decocking my CZ's, nor have I ever observed anyone having a problem. That's a mouthful because some many people can freak up anything simple or not. 

I repeat what I said earlier...if you don't want to do this decocking shoot a striker fired gun. No problem. Just leave everybody else alone for craps sake. Frankly it's harder to put the gun at half cock than lowering the hammer all the way. At half cock on a gun with no firing pin block the gun might go off if dropped although I doubt it. One thing for sure is the gun is pointed down range as the hammer is lowered, no one knows where its pointed if dropped.

 

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9 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Still not addressing the fact that on many guns half cocked is not as safe a condition as fully decocked

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Agreed! So everyone should just lower the hammer all the way down. Half cocked is dumb.

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I haven't seen the additional point of Match management. It is a slippery slope to start having too many rules that are make/model specific. Enforcement would become confused at best. Fully decocking a handgun has been in practice for quite some time. Therefore, it seems logical that a blanket rule  would be a most practical rule that is fair across the board and can be managed by ROs with a certain degree of consistency.

The safety perspectives seem to rage like choice of pie. Perhaps we should shift this discussion to 'how to show clear'.

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3 hours ago, Jeff O said:

Yeah the designers of the de-cocker didn't know what they were doing.

actually I believe they probably did, they built a whole mechanism to put the SPECIFIC gun they were designing into a safe condition. The question is is that same condition safe on ALL guns? the answer to that is no. 

CZ doesn't make a De-cocker without a firing pin block

Tanfoglio decocker guns do not stop at half cock. 

if you think half cock is an advantage buy one that does that.  

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1 hour ago, Jeff O said:

I started this thread looking for a level playing field so..... let's have the decocker guys pull the trigger and lower the hammer all the way.

if you really want a level playing field for equipment the only way to achieve it would be to have everyone use the same gun (with no alterations), holster, mag pouches, cover garment, shoes, ect. otherwise someone will perceive that somebody has an advantage somewhere.

  

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..... Frankly it's harder to put the gun at half cock than lowering the hammer all the way. At half cock on a gun with no firing pin block the gun might go off if dropped although I doubt it....

 



I don't know about your guns, but mine are just as easy if not easier to drop to 1/2 cock.

A gun with no firing pin and the hammer fully down could land on the hammer and fire the weapon also.

Again, I'm not looking to change the rule or mess your world up.
Just saying the rule is not always the safER way to do it.



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14 hours ago, IronArcher said:

 




A gun with no firing pin and the hammer fully down could land on the hammer and fire the weapon also.

 

 

Could it? I think you should test it. Take out your firing pin block, chamber a primed case, and hit the back of the hammer with a mallet.  I don't think it will work.

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14 hours ago, IronArcher said:

 



Just saying the rule is not always the safER way to do it.



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I will admit it is not always safer to be fully decocked, sometimes it is equally safe, you consistently fail to show how half cock is "safer" for all or some guns 

 

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4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Could it? I think you should test it. Take out your firing pin block, chamber a primed case, and hit the back of the hammer with a mallet.  I don't think it will work.

Dropped from holster height very very unlikely but yes you can get a non FPB gun to fire by hitting the hammer,  think Newton's Cradle, I believe it would take a sharp blow to the hammer with a hard object (like a metal hammer) to get it to go off, I would be surprised if you could do it with any of the "competition" style hammers that have the center cut out as that would allow the hammer to deform rather than transfer all the energy applied to it.

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Could it? I think you should test it. Take out your firing pin block, chamber a primed case, and hit the back of the hammer with a mallet.  I don't think it will work.



Betting you are right.
Also betting I could hit that hammer at 1/2 cock and it won't go off either.


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