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Jeff O

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2017 Provisional Rulebook 

Rule 8.2.1.1 C

Says that manual safety guns including, but not limited to CZs and Tanfos, start with hammer in lowest position (ie: on firing pin). Decocker guns including but not limited to Berettas and Sigs may be de-cocked to the half-cock position.

This would seem to be unfair at best and unsafe at worst.

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Not unfair or unsafe, it's just how those guns are designed to be used.
Would you rather have a hammer partially cocked on a gun without a firing pin block? I know I would not. Unless you have installed an extremely long aftermarket firing pin when the hammer on most (all?) DA guns is all the way down the firing pin is not touching the primer.
As for un fair many guns have different trigger systems find one you like and use it.

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Okay, on a manual safety gun like a CZ or a Tanfo if you start to pull the trigger and take your finger off the trigger and drop the hammer it will not fire the gun, it drops to half-cock just like a de-cocker. In my opinion it's much safer resting at half-cock than on the firing pin. Also I have shot most every gun that exists that is legal for SSP, and won with them all ! I have found my system.

 

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Not UNfair or UNsafe.... but LESS safe.
Dropping the hammer fully down for most, means their finger is pulling the trigger back (defeating the firing pin block) past the 1/2 c0ck possition... if not all the way until the hammer hits the pin.
Going to 1/2 c0ck means you can get your buger picker off of the bang switch MUCH earlier (safER), and engage the firing pin block.
There is virtually zero competitive advantage to going to 1/2 c0ck, but it is safER.
Even without a firing pin block, being at 1/2 c0ck can be safER than hammer fully down.
Not a very wise rule (look up other threads on the issue).


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Therefore they must be right?!?

Why not allow 1/2 cocked and locked?


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Your not supposed to be able to half cock and lock on cz's. Yes you can on tuned guns, but you may ruin your trigger internals as the hammer isn't locked (you can still pull the trigger on safe and have hammer go down)

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It doesn't take brains to have a gun, just money. I got into it with a guy on one of these forms that was carrying his de-cocker cocked, but not de-cocked.

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Your not supposed to be able to half cock and lock on cz's. Yes you can on tuned guns, but you may ruin your trigger internals as the hammer isn't locked (you can still pull the trigger on safe and have hammer go down)

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And what about guns that the safety actually works on?


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19 hours ago, Jeff O said:

Also I have shot most every gun that exists that is legal for SSP, and won with them all !

This seems highly unlikely for several reasons. 

 

Rowdy has it right.  Neither unfair nor unsafe.  And though I think IronArcher makes good points in his response, he also agrees that the rule is neither unfair nor unsafe.

 

 

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I could show you the results but your opinion is inconsequential to me. At the end of the day it has always been, and will always be, the carpenter not the hammer. I'm going out to practice, match Sat.

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12 hours ago, IronArcher said:

Therefore they must be right?!?

Why not allow 1/2 cocked and locked?


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I think that is most likely the case. especially when one of the rules bodies has gone to great lengths to be different than the other is so many other ways.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, IronArcher said:

Therefore they must be right?!?

Why not allow 1/2 cocked and locked?


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Oddly looking at the CZ 75 users manual it says to lower the hammer till it rests on the action or safety thumb (whatever that is) so I guess all the way down is where they think it should go. even if the safety thumb is some weird translation for half cock then it is a either or proposition and selecting all the way down as default is probably safer given the rule covers all DA guns and not all guns have firing pin blocks.

 

from the CZ75 users manual

" Load the pistol. Grasp the grip, POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION. With thumb press on the grooved area (thumb piece) of the hammer, pull the trigger and release the hammer slowly ahead (Fig. 6) until it rests on the action or safety thumb of the hammer. Release the trigger. Practise this operation very carefully to avoid an accidental discharge! We strongly recommend to practise this operation beforehand with the pistol unloaded! "

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3 hours ago, Jeff O said:

I could show you the results but your opinion is inconsequential to me. At the end of the day it has always been, and will always be, the carpenter not the hammer. I'm going out to practice, match Sat.

One of the useful things about being an IDPA member is that everyone's classifications and various performances in major matches are available to all, which makes fact-checking very straightfoward.  When people make claims, it is simple to check those claims.

 

One of the things I've always been curious about, regarding this topic (which has pretty much only been of academic interest to me, since I shoot Glocks in competition) is:  Does anyone have any data showing safety issues that have occurred since these types of rules have been implemented?  Both USPSA and IDPA have this "hammer fully down" thing as a rule---have there BEEN any cases of safety incidents due to it?

Like I said, IronArcher made a good point about when he said "not unsafe, but less safe" and discussed exactly the difference between dropping to half-cocked, and dropping to fully decocked.  The important question seems to me to be:  Have there actually been any issues with people going hammer fully down on CZs and the like due to this rule?   I don't believe I've heard of any at all--has anyone else?

If there haven't (given the number of times people have had to follow that rule), perhaps "not unsafe" is perfectly sufficient.

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Do they list reasons for DQs?
Dropping the hammer and a round going into the berm (like it should) wouldn't be listed as an accident, but will get you a DQ.

I have never done it, but I have heard of people getting a DQ for slipping and firing the shot.

At my first classifier, I had 2 SOs freaking out because I was dropping the hammer. Guessing they didn't see many Tanfos before mine. They looked it up and realized I was doing it right... but they said they were still a little freaked out by it.

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3 hours ago, IronArcher said:

Do they list reasons for DQs?
Dropping the hammer and a round going into the berm (like it should) wouldn't be listed as an accident, but will get you a DQ.

I have never done it, but I have heard of people getting a DQ for slipping and firing the shot.

At my first classifier, I had 2 SOs freaking out because I was dropping the hammer. Guessing they didn't see many Tanfos before mine. They looked it up and realized I was doing it right... but they said they were still a little freaked out by it.

In USPSA I know that the specific rule used for the DQ is always cited.  I don't know if IDPA does it that way.  (I'm rather doubting it.)

You've heard of someone (or more than one) NDing while lowering the hammer during the make ready process?

I'm wondering if anyone has SEEN one, as opposed to hearing about it from other people.  Like I said, I haven't even heard of one, so I definitely haven't seen one.    I'd think that collectively, the people who post here have probably watched a LOT of shooters--how many people have ever seen anyone ND while lowering the hammer during the make ready process?

(The reason I'm asking for "seen" isn't because I doubt anyone, it is because in any closed group of people, one strange occurrence can be of sufficient interest to be a large topic of conversation, so that eventually, multiple people will say perfectly truthfully that they've "heard" of that strange thing happening, but later it turns out for all of their stories to have been based on only one strange occurrence.  Hence my question about whether anyone has actually seen one occur.)

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I don't belive the safety issues is during the act of decocking the gun, it's in the condition of the gun after being decocked. If a hammer is placed at half cock on a gun without a firing pin block you now have a gun with a cocked hammer above the firing pin with no safety system to stop it from dropping onto the firing pin if it were to slip off the hammer hook. If that were to happen would it set off the primer? Maybe maybe not.
Now all the way decocked on a gun with no firing pin block is not entirely fool proof, striking the hammer sharply with a hard object, like a hammer could transfer the energy to the firing pin needed to get it to the primer (think Newtons Cradle)

Personally (and apparently accepted by multiple governing bodies and manufacturers) I will take the chance that my holstered gun will not be struck sharply on its hammer between make ready and the start beep, over hoping the half cock set up in my pistol was designed to be used that way.

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Do they list reasons for DQs?
Dropping the hammer and a round going into the berm (like it should) wouldn't be listed as an accident, but will get you a DQ.

I have never done it, but I have heard of people getting a DQ for slipping and firing the shot.

At my first classifier, I had 2 SOs freaking out because I was dropping the hammer. Guessing they didn't see many Tanfos before mine. They looked it up and realized I was doing it right... but they said they were still a little freaked out by it.


That's why I shove my thumb, nail towards the hammer then press trigger, let the hammer drop then thumb roll up. No way to accidentally discharge while dropping the hammer.

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I am quite content to depend on the inertial firing pin of my "pre-B" without mechanical firing pin obstruction.

I used it a good deal DA from halfcock for the shorter trigger arc, but then IDPA got picky about such stuff so I just let it all the way down.  As I had before when I thought Condition 2 was a reasonable way to carry a 1911. 

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In USPSA I know that the specific rule used for the DQ is always cited.  I don't know if IDPA does it that way.  (I'm rather doubting it.)

You've heard of someone (or more than one) NDing while lowering the hammer during the make ready process?

I'm wondering if anyone has SEEN one, as opposed to hearing about it from other people.  Like I said, I haven't even heard of one, so I definitely haven't seen one.    I'd think that collectively, the people who post here have probably watched a LOT of shooters--how many people have ever seen anyone ND while lowering the hammer during the make ready process?

(The reason I'm asking for "seen" isn't because I doubt anyone, it is because in any closed group of people, one strange occurrence can be of sufficient interest to be a large topic of conversation, so that eventually, multiple people will say perfectly truthfully that they've "heard" of that strange thing happening, but later it turns out for all of their stories to have been based on only one strange occurrence.  Hence my question about whether anyone has actually seen one occur.)



Yes, poor technique.
Attempting to go to 1/2 cock may not have made a difference (or it might have).
Just posting so people could see it happen




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