ohsevenflhx Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Can someone post a picture of PCC start....stock on belt, muzzle downrange, loaded carbine held in both hands.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Maybe this will help. Buttstock on belt and muzzle raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohsevenflhx Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 That shows butstock on belt, but the rules say muzzle at 3 foot up at middle of berm. His muzzle is clearly over the berm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 11 minutes ago, ohsevenflhx said: That shows butstock on belt, but the rules say muzzle at 3 foot up at middle of berm. His muzzle is clearly over the berm... The video was not a USPSA stage. What USPSA rule are you quoting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohsevenflhx Posted January 2, 2017 Author Share Posted January 2, 2017 My mistake, that's for a barricade start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, ohsevenflhx said: My mistake, that's for a barricade start. It seems that you may be referring to the "best practices" document. Keep in mind the last sentence of the first paragraph: "These suggestions are NOT rules, they are here to help clubs adapt to the new division if desired." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Every time i start with the buttstock on my belt and gun in both hands yes, what i think you're getting at, the muzzle is over the berm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohsevenflhx Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 I believe they are referring to the way IPSC shotgun shooters start at times. Like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohsevenflhx Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 (edited) Neomet. This is what I thought they meant. Edited January 26, 2017 by ohsevenflhx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Right up until you get everyone's different definition of "port arms" as well in pcc start positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Yeah, I'm kinda a stinker on port arms. It doesn't have to be like Uncle Sam taught you but if the muzzle isn't up around your chin or nose it ain't at port arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 ^^ fact. if we had to start at a true port arms then first shot times on pcc wouldn't be soo blazing. and for 'butt of gun touching belt' starts i like to keep the muzzle high, so i just rotate the stock up into my shoulder, not lifting the whole gun from horizontal and up like in the shotgun pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Has there been any actual ruling on this? The definition of "downrange" is really what I think we are after... I personally have been stock on belt, muzzle raised to about eyes level and lifting my stock into position...also seen guys doing it completely horizontal...also seen guys doing it everywhere in between... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Has there been any actual ruling on this? The definition of "downrange" is really what I think we are after... I personally have been stock on belt, muzzle raised to about eyes level and lifting my stock into position...also seen guys doing it completely horizontal...also seen guys doing it everywhere in between...From the rulebook, APPENDIX A3"Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop.Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange."Available here:https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I guess if you want more specifics, write it into your stage briefing. I can't believe it would make much difference in start times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Our last match we used aiming points. The PCC guy thought it was a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 On 2017-03-07 at 3:14 PM, PatJones said: From the rulebook, APPENDIX A3 "Facing Uprange ................Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange." Available here:https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php This reference in the rules is actually inaccurate and was corrected by NROI Ruling about a year and a half ago. See the following: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ85Combat Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Port arms definition is left vague as some ranges have rules about muzzle above berm = DQ If port arms had to be muzzle high up around your chin or nose, then some clubs would not allow PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 If a range does not allow the muzzle to be pointed over the berm, then they should limit their stages to "low ready" starts. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) If a local range doesn't allow muzzles over the berm they shouldn't be running any USPSA matches. Local rules are verboten. I can tolerate some that don't force shooters the drastically alter their techniques, like some ranges don't want you driving down steel due to bullets skipping. But any range that has a "muzzle over the berm = DQ" shouldn't be running USPSA, muzzle up reloads are extremely common in USPSA. Edited March 13, 2017 by PPGMD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 3 hours ago, CZ85Combat said: Port arms definition is left vague as some ranges have rules about muzzle above berm = DQ If port arms had to be muzzle high up around your chin or nose, then some clubs would not allow PCC. Can you quote that rule? I'm having trouble finding that in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XD Niner Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 3.3 Applicability of Rules: "...Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, XD Niner said: 3.3 Applicability of Rules: "...Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction..." That has zero to do with club rules and berms. The next sentence of that same rule says so. Edited March 13, 2017 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemmo Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) On 1/26/2017 at 8:23 PM, Neomet said: I believe they are referring to the way IPSC shotgun shooters start at times. The IPSC Rifle (and I believe shotgun) rules up until 2012 specified that the gun should be parallel to the ground, stock touching at hip level. The parallel to the ground rule was then removed and now most sensible people start like this: It makes it easier to get first shot on target since the end of the barrel is already in line with the target, so you only extend your left arm bit and bring the stock up just like in shotgun sports (at least outside US) I used to shoot sporting clays and international skeet before IPSC rifle, mounting the rifle is just the same in IPSC as in those sports. Also, in IPSC, down range is anywhere within the safety angles, and up range is the opposite. You will always start pointing towards your first target to save time. Edited March 13, 2017 by slemmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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